Drama...long...vent

Tiger-eye

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Warning this is a long (and confusing) vent. Feel free to stop reading now.

I trained with instructor A for ten years. Received my 2nd dan in TKD. Had my son and took 6 years off. Gave up on coming back despite my love for it.

Ran into instructor B (who was a color belt when I left,is now third dan) and started training with him. Stayed at belt rank as I remembered everything. Instructor B had left instructor A and switched to instructor C. (Her studio is an hour away from B's). Both studios are named the same and are supposed to simply share them and just head one or the other.

Instructor B gave me permission to test for third dan (big no-no as he's only 3rd). Instructor C denied it. Now they're fighting over it and who has authority. Instructor B wants to buy out instructor C's studio,etc. so much DRAMA. what ever happened to respecting each other? ESPECIALLY your instructor!!!

So my test in June is most likely not happening, which I'm okay with. I trust instructor C's opinion. But instructor B's actions and behavior lately is really making me consider leaving him:/
 

Dirty Dog

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Instructor B, as a 3rd Dan, has no business testing you, and that he is offering to do so says plenty, to me.
 
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Tiger-eye

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Instructor B, as a 3rd Dan, has no business testing you, and that he is offering to do so says plenty, to me.
And that is what's really bothering me. He knew he couldn't test me, and said instructor C would along with a GM who flies out in June for summer camp but the fact he's mad that he shouldn't have even given me permission is crazy. If someone isn't testing you, they shouldn't give permission either.
 

jks9199

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OK -- as I read this, a 3rd dan instructor, who has been serving as your primary instructor, said you were ready to test for 3rd dan. He didn't test you, he didn't promote you -- just said you were ready. Don't really see the problem. Might have been more politic to ask the senior instructor to do an assessment, but he didn't do the promotion. He just said you could test.

Personally -- don't see any reason for drama. Worst case, he overstepped, you're nowhere near ready, and both of you get embarrassed when you fail. Maybe a small problem if he had been newly promoted himself, and made the call...
 

Dirty Dog

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I think the problem isn't so much that the 3rd Dan's opinion on Tiger-eye's readiness for promotion. He's certainly entitled to an opinion. It's the 3rd Dan thinking that he has the authority to not just have an opinion, but perform the test.
I don't know of any system that allows instructors to promote to their own level. Yes, there is always the case of 9th Dan promotions (or whatever the highest rank in a given system happens to be), but these are typically done by a panel, not an individual.
In a case like this, the instructor will typically recommend to the Seniors (Instructor C, in this case) that an individual be considered for promotion.
Personally, I'd be most interested in WHY Instructor C didn't think I was ready for promotion.
 
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Tiger-eye

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OK -- as I read this, a 3rd dan instructor, who has been serving as your primary instructor, said you were ready to test for 3rd dan. He didn't test you, he didn't promote you -- just said you were ready. Don't really see the problem. Might have been more politic to ask the senior instructor to do an assessment, but he didn't do the promotion. He just said you could test.

Personally -- don't see any reason for drama. Worst case, he overstepped, you're nowhere near ready, and both of you get embarrassed when you fail. Maybe a small problem if he had been newly promoted himself, and made the call...
We are part of the ITF TKD and it's written down (been told this at least, I haven't read it myself) that you have to be a certain rank ahead to even recommend someone to test.
 
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Tiger-eye

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I think the problem isn't so much that the 3rd Dan's opinion on Tiger-eye's readiness for promotion. He's certainly entitled to an opinion. It's the 3rd Dan thinking that he has the authority to not just have an opinion, but perform the test.
I don't know of any system that allows instructors to promote to their own level. Yes, there is always the case of 9th Dan promotions (or whatever the highest rank in a given system happens to be), but these are typically done by a panel, not an individual.
In a case like this, the instructor will typically recommend to the Seniors (Instructor C, in this case) that an individual be considered for promotion.
Personally, I'd be most interested in WHY Instructor C didn't think I was ready for promotion.
Instructor B wasn't going to test me... But he felt his opinion that I was ready should outweigh instructor C's opinion. But C would be the one testing me anyways. So it's rude to demand your senior to test someone. Then talk bad about her... The reason for my not being ready is instructor C wants to work with me in 1:1 situations as she has a lot of details and info to pass down that I'm not getting from my regular classes.
 

Carol

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So my takeaway from this is Instructor B is on a bit of power trip.
B wants to by C's school.
B wants authority over who can test and who cannot, and appears to be forcing C's hand
B may think he can run the show and put bodies in the school better than C (and perhaps he does. You don't have to outrank your instructor to be a better businessperson than they are)

C not thinking you are ready yet doesn't seem unreasonable.
C wanting to work with you privately to get you caught up, this throws a minor red flag.

Given your circumstances -- a dan ranked student returning to training after several years away -- that doesn't seem completely out of bounds. But watch the motivation. If its genuinely to see you succeed and move forward to your 3rd Dan, great. But private lessons are often expensive and if it is to add to the school's bottom line during an already tense situation...I'd be a bit concerned.

Its possible that B is being a bit of a tool.
Its also possible that B is acting out the way he is because C is not recognizing his contributions to growing the business.
Or some combination of both.

Squabbles are going to happen. It sounds like you like the training overall, it might be worth focusing primarily on what you need to do for your 3rd and see how it blows over.
 
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Tiger-eye

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So my takeaway from this is Instructor B is on a bit of power trip.
B wants to by C's school.
B wants authority over who can test and who cannot, and appears to be forcing C's hand
B may think he can run the show and put bodies in the school better than C (and perhaps he does. You don't have to outrank your instructor to be a better businessperson than they are)

C not thinking you are ready yet doesn't seem unreasonable.
C wanting to work with you privately to get you caught up, this throws a minor red flag.

Given your circumstances -- a dan ranked student returning to training after several years away -- that doesn't seem completely out of bounds. But watch the motivation. If its genuinely to see you succeed and move forward to your 3rd Dan, great. But private lessons are often expensive and if it is to add to the school's bottom line during an already tense situation...I'd be a bit concerned.

Its possible that B is being a bit of a tool.
Its also possible that B is acting out the way he is because C is not recognizing his contributions to growing the business.
Or some combination of both.

Squabbles are going to happen. It sounds like you like the training overall, it might be worth focusing primarily on what you need to do for your 3rd and see how it blows over.
Regarding the 1:1 instruction, she does it completely free. It's not to gain money whatsoever.
 

WaterGal

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Sounds like Instructor B is chafing at having to follow Instructor C's lead and wants to be his own boss and do everything his own way. Not knowing anything about any of these people, I don't know whether that's his ego talking, or whether Instructor C is a bad boss/school owner, or what.

If she wants to get some one-on-one time with you, I think it's likely that there's stuff you need to know that she thinks Instructor B hasn't taught you, or not taught it to you correctly/in enough detail. That could be the source of their conflict, too - either he's not preparing people sufficiently and she has good reason to be concerned, or he's doing fine and she's micro-managing and being overbearing. Again, not knowing these people, I don't know.

But if she's testing you and she says you're not ready, then that's really all that needs to be said, isn't it? Even if B buys the school, he still can't test you. So just say "okay, I'm going to wait until C says I'm ready", and let that be the end of it.
 

Balrog

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Instructor B gave me permission to test for third dan (big no-no as he's only 3rd).
I don't see an issue with this. He is your instructor of record. He may not have the promotional authority to promote you, but he most assuredly has the say on whether you are ready to test or not. All that needs to happen is to arrange to have a testing panel that has sufficient authority to promote you.

I'm a 6th Degree Black Belt. My wife was 5th Degree. I certainly don't have promotional authority for her, but I gave her permission to test because I knew she was ready. She promoted, too.
 

Dirty Dog

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I don't see an issue with this. He is your instructor of record. He may not have the promotional authority to promote you, but he most assuredly has the say on whether you are ready to test or not. All that needs to happen is to arrange to have a testing panel that has sufficient authority to promote you.

I'm a 6th Degree Black Belt. My wife was 5th Degree. I certainly don't have promotional authority for her, but I gave her permission to test because I knew she was ready. She promoted, too.

I would phrase it differently. Since you can't actually test her, I'd say you expressed an opinion that she was ready to test, with which those who could actually promote her agreed. The actual permission to test came from those able to test her.
When someone asks me if I think they're ready to test, I'm merely offering an opinion, unless I'm the one who will actually be doing the testing. Permission is granted when I say "I think you're ready. Let's see what Master Valdez and GM Kim think." and THEY agree. If I don't have the authority to promote them, then I don't have the authority to give them permission. Merely recommend them to those who CAN.
A small semantic difference, but one I think is important.
 

jks9199

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I don't see a problem with C wanting to assess the OP themselves, rather than blindly accept B's judgement. But B wasn't promoting the OP; he said he could test. So... C had an easy out: fail the OP, disavowing the recommendation or suggestion for promotion, and laying the blame on B for approving testing someone who was unready.
 

WaterGal

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They could, but that's not really fair to the OP. Letting someone test when you know that they're going to fail, and then failing them (which is potentially humiliating), in order to make their instructor look bad and teach the instructor a lesson? I don't think that's right.
 

Balrog

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I would phrase it differently. Since you can't actually test her, I'd say you expressed an opinion that she was ready to test, with which those who could actually promote her agreed. The actual permission to test came from those able to test her.
When someone asks me if I think they're ready to test, I'm merely offering an opinion, unless I'm the one who will actually be doing the testing. Permission is granted when I say "I think you're ready. Let's see what Master Valdez and GM Kim think." and THEY agree. If I don't have the authority to promote them, then I don't have the authority to give them permission. Merely recommend them to those who CAN.
A small semantic difference, but one I think is important.
No semantics. Although at our rank levels we have to test in front of the international testing committee, we still have to have our instructor's permission to test. Quite literally, as our instructor has to sign our testing application. She had to have mine and when I test for 7th Degree, I'll have to have my instructor's permission.
 

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