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kailat

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Okay so tonite be it all hallow's eve.. I have had a few to drink.. not drunk though.. or at least I don't think im drunk.. I've had a great evening.. all till the end of the night.. isn't that how it usually goes????

Ok, so been to several bars.. the Witches Ball, a couple different establishement's halloween costume contest etc.. it was a great evening.. had the chance to listen to some great bands, and hang out drink some great beer. My friends, my brother come down from out of town and we all just had a wonderful evening tonite. UNTIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay so, as we all walked back to our cars to part for the evening there was 2 guys who wanted to start talking crap to my group... They wanted to run off at the mouth.. start just throwing their hands up and saying crap that just really irritated me and done it QUICK!!!!!!! I don't know what got into me, but i just wasn't in the mood for either of thier mouth's..

So this dumb fool wanted to strip his shirt off as he started walking towards me.. I said " dude your crossing the line.. i wouldn't do it!"" I begged him to stop!! He continued and got right in my face at which time he ended up on his *** and I honestly don't know how it even happend...LOL.. His buddy came up stripping his shirt off and "BAM" he was next to his buddy both picking themselves off the pavement. My buddies, my girl and my brother all standing in all as I started tearing my costume off of me in seconds.. having my tactical folder on me, my K-BAR TDI blade in my back, and a cane that was part of my costume which included a sword hidden inside the cane itself.. HMMM I was like look guys.. " you are both in the wrong.. leave it alone and go home" My girl started getting in my face and the other two guys.. Hmm imagine that.. a girl starting to get in between the ****!! I was pissed at this time..

I think I was more so mad at her than the other two guys.. Both said it was on to me.. I said bring it.. and next thing I said was " u TWo need to recognize as i quickly clicked open my tac folding blade.. OOOPS!!! but at this time it was GAME ON!! in my mind I was gonna cut both of them no matter what.. the two outnumbered me, and in my eyes it was deadly force issue.. When the blade came out the two quickly changed thier tunes and backed down.. i put the knife up and said " U need to recognize im not your punk *** white boy take your attitude down the street to someone you can punk out.. cause im not that guy".... The one guy quickly came to me as he was sorry and tried to hug me.. As I was not feeling that cause ididn't know him.. He quickly caught a right hook to the jaw I did not trust him.. Ipunched him straight in the face.. I told him " Im not your friend, your pal.. GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Ithink he realized quickly I was not Messing w/ him anymore.. his buddy as comical as it was, went from bad *** to "big *****" real fast.... NOW I felt they started crap w/ me and my family and friends for NO reason.. I was not about to settle for thier half *** appologies.. they made me mad.. i was ready to kill both of them... Does this make me BAD? A killer or a WARRIOR????
 

terryl965

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First off protecting yourself is good, but when you bring out weapons and you really want to kill someone that my friend is bad. As martial artist we owe it to ourself and our instructors to know not how to cross the line. I believe the alcohol had something to do with the extra attitude. I am glad no one ended up in jail and that you really did not cut someone.
 

elder999

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Okay so tonite be it all hallow's eve.. I have had a few to drink.. not drunk though.. or at least I don't think im drunk..


Don't know if you're drunk? Then guess what? You're drunk.


Okay so, as we all walked back to our cars to part for the evening there was 2 guys who wanted to start talking crap to my group... They wanted to run off at the mouth.. start just throwing their hands up and saying crap that just really irritated me and done it QUICK!!!!!!!

Empty vessels make the most noise Sounds like you had strength in numbers, anyway. Why not ignore them?

I don't know what got into me

"a few beers...."

but i just wasn't in the mood for either of thier mouth's..

Let's see-you're having a good time, they want to ruin it, and you let them?

So this dumb fool wanted to strip his shirt off as he started walking towards me.. I said " dude your crossing the line.. i wouldn't do it!"" I begged him to stop!! He continued and got right in my face at which time he ended up on his *** and I honestly don't know how it even happend...LOL..

"a few beers"

His buddy came up stripping his shirt off and "BAM" he was next to his buddy both picking themselves off the pavement. My buddies, my girl and my brother all standing in all as I started tearing my costume off of me in seconds.. having my tactical folder on me, my K-BAR TDI blade in my back, and a cane that was part of my costume which included a sword hidden inside the cane itself.. HMMM

This is the point where, however justified you might have been before, you should have kept on going....(were you walking, or did you have a "designated driver?" since we've already established that you were drunk....)

I was like look guys.. " you are both in the wrong.. leave it alone and go home" My girl started getting in my face and the other two guys.. Hmm imagine that.. a girl starting to get in between the ****!! I was pissed at this time..
....and should have just gone home.....

I think I was more so mad at her than the other two guys.. Both said it was on to me.. I said bring it.. and next thing I said was " u TWo need to recognize as i quickly clicked open my tac folding blade.. OOOPS!!! but at this time it was GAME ON!! in my mind I was gonna cut both of them no matter what.. the two outnumbered me, and in my eyes it was deadly force issue.. When the blade came out the two quickly changed thier tunes and backed down.. i put the knife up and said " U need to recognize im not your punk *** white boy take your attitude down the street to someone you can punk out.. cause im not that guy".... The one guy quickly came to me as he was sorry and tried to hug me.. As I was not feeling that cause ididn't know him.. He quickly caught a right hook to the jaw I did not trust him.. Ipunched him straight in the face.. I told him " Im not your friend, your pal.. GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Ithink he realized quickly I was not Messing w/ him anymore.. his buddy as comical as it was, went from bad *** to "big *****" real fast....

That sounds suspiciously like the booze was talking for you. Either that or.....



NOW I felt they started crap w/ me and my family and friends for NO reason.. I was not about to settle for thier half *** appologies.. they made me mad.. i was ready to kill both of them... Does this make me BAD? A killer or a WARRIOR????



This is why I prefer to do my drinking at home.....:lfao:
 
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shesulsa

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You sound like a liquored-up fool ... but it's a good thing you can fight while intoxicated.

Get rid of the girl - in your face during a fight is an incredibly stupid place for her to be. Either make sure she trains a little and gets some education or just say goodbye. You don't need that.

My advice? I have none. Other than maybe don't go getting drunk; it can make you vulnerable.
 

Andy Moynihan

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Okay.

Ignoring for just a moment the 3 stupids rule ( don't go to stupid places, with stupid people, to do stupid things and you will find it nearly impossible to get into trouble).

A sacred commandment has been broken here.

You can EITHER:

*Go armed

OR

*consume alcohol.

NOT BOTH. You're damn lucky this didn't end up in court or you would have been FRIED on that stand.
 
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kailat

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yeah, real quick here I am on the way out the door.. But as I woke up today I guess I was a little more intoxicated than I realized last night.. a few beers (4) really got me more drunk than I thought since im a light weight and havn't drank in almost a year..

secondly, I was stupid what happend I vouge for that.. My brother who was the DD (designated driver) was already in the car, waiting as my gf/ my sister in law and I were walking to the car... We had went to\ethe "Witches Ball" downtown to listen to a buddies band play. He's been trying to get us to go out and hear them for awhile.. but since i don't get out much anymore.. I thought last night would be fun..

Guess, what happened was my costume sparked this guy off as he was looking for a fight. He had got kicked out of a downtown establishment for being drunk and started a fight w/ somene who had a costume on simular to mine, and he thought I was him.. he approached me running his mouth and I didn't know why at first.. my initial reaction was to defend myself and the girls.. HEY Im an officer of the law but was playing patron and civilian last night.. was not in the moood to play drunk police officer or respected martial art teacher.. at that point in time there was 2 grown men ready to fight me and my thoughts were AUTOMATICALLY DEFENSIVE.. Once we engaged that was it... I was not his buddy right or wrong, no matter if he confused me w/ someone at that point..

It goes to prove u go out looking for trouble u may find it w/ someone that isn't going to play bythe rules.... I was in my opinion out numbered and by having a law enforcement mentality when two men approach me to fight, imma get an equalizer. i didn't have my side arm but i had my trusty ol' tac folder.. and YES I would and will use it if the situation presents itself.. Im am very happy that it didn't go that way and all in all I realize that im sitting at home on FRI nights from now on, unless Im working the streets.. Hind site is 20/20 to many of us.. its easy to say what yu would of done, or how stupid it is to engage in fighting..
TRUTH is, im not afraid to fight.. its not what i want or look for.. but the thought of it, really does not bother me.. its who i am..

I train, teach, survival.. as a police officer and as a martial artist.. survival means I live to fight another day... outnumbered by the law is considered the use of deadly force by way of the force continum.

So tooo all those who may read this outsde of the realm.. If u fight someone and outnumber them and they use a weapon to equalize the situation they are in the rght by the court of law... so just FYI what I actally done would of been justified... walking away from that situation last night was not an option as they approached us and came from accross the street at us rather quickly and w/ conviction. there was no one else around us and my brother would not of done anything..he's scared of his own shadow so myself and my girl pretty much were the only ones w/ balls to stand up to these idiots...
 

Andy Moynihan

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yeah, real quick here I am on the way out the door.. But as I woke up today I guess I was a little more intoxicated than I realized last night.. a few beers (4) really got me more drunk than I thought since im a light weight and havn't drank in almost a year..

secondly, I was stupid what happend I vouge for that.. My brother who was the DD (designated driver) was already in the car, waiting as my gf/ my sister in law and I were walking to the car... We had went to\ethe "Witches Ball" downtown to listen to a buddies band play. He's been trying to get us to go out and hear them for awhile.. but since i don't get out much anymore.. I thought last night would be fun..

Guess, what happened was my costume sparked this guy off as he was looking for a fight. He had got kicked out of a downtown establishment for being drunk and started a fight w/ somene who had a costume on simular to mine, and he thought I was him.. he approached me running his mouth and I didn't know why at first.. my initial reaction was to defend myself and the girls.. HEY Im an officer of the law but was playing patron and civilian last night.. was not in the moood to play drunk police officer or respected martial art teacher.. at that point in time there was 2 grown men ready to fight me and my thoughts were AUTOMATICALLY DEFENSIVE.. Once we engaged that was it... I was not his buddy right or wrong, no matter if he confused me w/ someone at that point..

It goes to prove u go out looking for trouble u may find it w/ someone that isn't going to play bythe rules.... I was in my opinion out numbered and by having a law enforcement mentality when two men approach me to fight, imma get an equalizer. i didn't have my side arm but i had my trusty ol' tac folder.. and YES I would and will use it if the situation presents itself.. Im am very happy that it didn't go that way and all in all I realize that im sitting at home on FRI nights from now on, unless Im working the streets.. Hind site is 20/20 to many of us.. its easy to say what yu would of done, or how stupid it is to engage in fighting..
TRUTH is, im not afraid to fight.. its not what i want or look for.. but the thought of it, really does not bother me.. its who i am..

I train, teach, survival.. as a police officer and as a martial artist.. survival means I live to fight another day... outnumbered by the law is considered the use of deadly force by way of the force continum.

So tooo all those who may read this outsde of the realm.. If u fight someone and outnumber them and they use a weapon to equalize the situation they are in the rght by the court of law... so just FYI what I actally done would of been justified... walking away from that situation last night was not an option as they approached us and came from accross the street at us rather quickly and w/ conviction. there was no one else around us and my brother would not of done anything..he's scared of his own shadow so myself and my girl pretty much were the only ones w/ balls to stand up to these idiots...

Being outnumbered isn't what they would've fried you on, it was that fatal combination of armed and drunk that you wouldn't have been able to turn around.

But based on your later post it seems you realize that now.
 

terryl965

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I can certainly appreciate your service as a lawman but remember the ageesor with a weapon that may or may not had to use it will be looked down upon by a court of law. Being drunk and letting words sparks you off is not very sensitive to a jury. They would look at this as you was also looking since you was so willing to fight. Until a punch or something comes at you they are just words, I was not there and do not know the manner they approached but we as Martial artist have a certain level of being able to control someone that is very much being an ***. I am so glad nothing really came from it.
 

Rich Parsons

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You sound like a liquored-up fool ... but it's a good thing you can fight while intoxicated.

Get rid of the girl - in your face during a fight is an incredibly stupid place for her to be. Either make sure she trains a little and gets some education or just say goodbye. You don't need that.

My advice? I have none. Other than maybe don't go getting drunk; it can make you vulnerable.

I do not wish to comment on the rest of the situation as described.

I am glad Shesulsa made this comment. I agree.

I have dropped women who do not understand that in a situation where violence in emminent or already upon us if I tell her to go someplace and be safe she had better be there or at least try and then tell me why she cannot. The reason I say this as I have been outnumbered and in places where assaults occur. I have told one GF to stay put as it was behind me and they had to get through me to get to her. we could not leave until I had cleared a path. She tried to come around and flank them. No training. No understanding of the situation. Grew up in a nice bedroom community so did not understand real violence. I then got hurt trying to get her back behind me and to keep her safe. It was the last date for us as she could not understand why it upset me for her not listening. Her arguement was that she was trying to protect me. If she had some experience or training firearms or knife or stick or emptyhands then I might have understood it. But at that time in my life she did not understand the level of violence available and I had move on. I had one GF before that where she did something similar but I was not hurt. I continued to date her but she did not get it no matter what happened.

I do not date women that like to see me Fight on the street or ask if I can beat so and so up. Coming to watch me spar is cool. That is a controlled situation so I respect her interest and promote it. I do not date women who do not understand that I have real life experiences that gives me knowledge on how best to survive a situation. (* Clear a path and get away is usaully the one I have found that works the best - others lead to legal issues that I also found to be expensive. *) They the women, I would date have to understand that I worked alone and with teams and know movements and intent and can read a situation. If it si first time surprise event a discussion afterwards to explain why I asked what I did and why it needs to be heard. I also wonder why they thought they could help. I understand caring, but the safest thing they can do it get to safety. Get teh car running and door open so I can jump in and take off. Lots of things to help me just not always physical in the middle of the violence.

Now for the Caveats and PC comments:
This is not sexism, it is my experience. I do not expect women to ahve the experience I have. I do not expect them to go toe to toe with a guy who out weighs them by 100 lbs. I understand some women have been trained. Some women have lived in violent situations and understand it. I just do not expect it to be the norm. There is a difference.
 

trainable

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Tough situation to be in when you have been drinking. Pre-emptive strikes may well be excused in court given the circumstance.

Intent of carrying the knife may fry you in court. Why on earth would you go DRINKING carrying two knives??? A DA will fry you on judgement issues. You could have lost your job, much better than losing your life.

Im a law enforcement officer as well, and I coach self defense/defensive tactics, and I have a hard time with the "normal individual" response that jurors will be asked to use to weigh their verdict. As I have seen many times before, being an LEO will not cover you when you are out drinking as a civilian and you throw a punch. They(the jury) may even hold you to a higher standard because you are an LEO/MA instructor. In my county here in Florida I would imagine the DA we have would try to charge you with aggravated assault for the knife in the mix with alcohol, and that conviction carries mandatory 3 year sentencing. Its a huge gamble, but the situation dictates appropriateness. I personally would not want a jury mulling over my judgement decisions I made while intoxicated.

Alcohol and weapons dont mix. Just my .02 because I have seen the case go the wrong way in similar situations. I am not pointing fingers, because I have stepped in the dogpile a few times myself, but I have seen decisions like that end a mans career, and make him a convicted felon. Even with the badge....
 
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kailat

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Well, I have alot to say here w/o tryingto post a book! Let me see if I can clear some things up here. I've had a little a bit of time for alot of this to sink in today. To be honest this thing is haunting me and it really keeps replaying in my mind over and over. Should I have done this, or should I have done that? Truth what I done is what I done no turning back or changing the situation.

OK I have to make this statement be it so some may be offended so strap on your offense proof vest and gear up for this because dear people be it you are martial artist who are active on here, or just lurker who read and never post on this forum (this is mostly directed to u individuals, not the MA themselves)... BEWARE WHO U RUN UP ON IN THE STREETS TRYING TO BE A TOUGH GUY BECAUSE U JUST MAY FIND SOMEONE WHO IS TOUGHER AND IS NOT AFFRAID OF YOUR ERROGANCE! ok w/ that said moving along here...

Last night's ordeal was and is a prime example of what would be considered "SELF DEFENSE"... henceforth why it went under the SD section of this forum.
At no time was my reactions or my decisions I made premeditated at the instance of the altercation.. My reactions were INSTINCT for SURVIVING an attack... IT IS WHAT WE TRAIN FOR! If you do not train martial arts for self defense then why train at all?

NOW, I may suffer a little from PTSD (post tramadic stress syndrome)from the gulf war and from working in job related fields where I have to deal w/ guys like these two *** holes last night...I worked several years as a jail officer and as a police officer u build into your interior design your make-up if you will as someone who normally does not take "CRAP" from people.

One thing I personally refuse to do until we become a police state and we are ran in communism and as long as Im allowed to come and go freely I refuse to be a slavery to society and sit at home because I fear the streets at night and can't go out for a night on the town w/ friends and family. If that is how u wish to live then more power to you!!! That wont be me.

See these guys were out looking for trouble, and your right when alcohol is involved in anything your gonna have conflict.. I live in a collage town and drinking and bars is pretty much alot of what their is to do in this town... im not a prude and im not so old that i have to sit at home all the time. Hell I work 50+hrs a week, and when im ready to unwind and go have a beer thats exactly what i'll do...

Let me see, while walking w/ your loved ones accross a parking lot and some idiots come out of nowhere directing towards you actions of assault w/ threats etc... Im sorry but runnning away, and turning my back from was not an option. I done exactly as I was taught to do. Stare the threat down and I gave him several verbal commands to back off, and that I was not who he thought I was..He invaded my personal space still w/ conviction on fighting at which time I accompanied him w/ his request.

This was not a street fight, this was not a bar fight, this was a mere self defense situation. I did not know these guys from day 1...pure random and that is what makes this "self - defense"... I spoke to a few of my buddies on this, some officers and some are not. But in all I was told I acted appropriatly and done nothing wrong and done exactly as I was trained to do. (perhaps I should of not used the knife as a visual to de-esculate the matter) But it did and it worked as I intended it too.

If u think for a second two grown men could not kill or do physical damage or bodily harm to one guy (regaurdless of his skill level, personal or public position held ie. police officer, martial arts instructor etc...) u are sadly mistaken.. I've seen guys w/ thier faces beaten in, skulls crushed, stabbed to death or worse.. So as it is said better to be JUDGED BY 12 RATHER THAN CARRIED BY 6....

these guys probably go around every weeknd starting crap w/ people all the time and probaby gets scared cowards who are too afraid to stand up to them... WELL Last night went bad for them..shows that if u stand up to evil u will prevail or die.. but u cannot fear death.. "Yeah though I walk thru the valley of the shadows of death, I will fear no evil!!!

I hope that for those of u if ever put in my situation would of acted simular and protected your loved ones... it is our duty as men to do so..

These situations is what seperates TRUE MARTIAL ARTIST who train for these situations over those armchair internet jockeys who thrives on telling others how they would of reacted and telling them how wrong they are for doing what they believe is right!... AND HAS NEVER BEEN IN A FIGHT OR ACTUAL SD SITUATION and would not know how to handle it.

thats what these forums are for.. truth and helping teach not filling up wasted space w/ useless information..

And finally, as for the girl friend yeah.. when she gets home from work today were gonna have a sit down and discuss this and explain that her getting into the middle was wrong. again hindsite is usually 20/20 and we can all live and learn today from yesterday's happenings for tomorrows bringings..

have a wonderful weekend

Cory
 

Rich Parsons

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Well, I have alot to say here w/o tryingto post a book! Let me see if I can clear some things up here. I've had a little a bit of time for alot of this to sink in today. To be honest this thing is haunting me and it really keeps replaying in my mind over and over. Should I have done this, or should I have done that? Truth what I done is what I done no turning back or changing the situation.

OK I have to make this statement be it so some may be offended so strap on your offense proof vest and gear up for this because dear people be it you are martial artist who are active on here, or just lurker who read and never post on this forum (this is mostly directed to u individuals, not the MA themselves)... BEWARE WHO U RUN UP ON IN THE STREETS TRYING TO BE A TOUGH GUY BECAUSE U JUST MAY FIND SOMEONE WHO IS TOUGHER AND IS NOT AFFRAID OF YOUR ERROGANCE! ok w/ that said moving along here...

Last night's ordeal was and is a prime example of what would be considered "SELF DEFENSE"... henceforth why it went under the SD section of this forum.
At no time was my reactions or my decisions I made premeditated at the instance of the altercation.. My reactions were INSTINCT for SURVIVING an attack... IT IS WHAT WE TRAIN FOR! If you do not train martial arts for self defense then why train at all?

NOW, I may suffer a little from PTSD (post tramadic stress syndrome)from the gulf war and from working in job related fields where I have to deal w/ guys like these two *** holes last night...I worked several years as a jail officer and as a police officer u build into your interior design your make-up if you will as someone who normally does not take "CRAP" from people.

One thing I personally refuse to do until we become a police state and we are ran in communism and as long as Im allowed to come and go freely I refuse to be a slavery to society and sit at home because I fear the streets at night and can't go out for a night on the town w/ friends and family. If that is how u wish to live then more power to you!!! That wont be me.

See these guys were out looking for trouble, and your right when alcohol is involved in anything your gonna have conflict.. I live in a collage town and drinking and bars is pretty much alot of what their is to do in this town... im not a prude and im not so old that i have to sit at home all the time. Hell I work 50+hrs a week, and when im ready to unwind and go have a beer thats exactly what i'll do...

Let me see, while walking w/ your loved ones accross a parking lot and some idiots come out of nowhere directing towards you actions of assault w/ threats etc... Im sorry but runnning away, and turning my back from was not an option. I done exactly as I was taught to do. Stare the threat down and I gave him several verbal commands to back off, and that I was not who he thought I was..He invaded my personal space still w/ conviction on fighting at which time I accompanied him w/ his request.

This was not a street fight, this was not a bar fight, this was a mere self defense situation. I did not know these guys from day 1...pure random and that is what makes this "self - defense"... I spoke to a few of my buddies on this, some officers and some are not. But in all I was told I acted appropriatly and done nothing wrong and done exactly as I was trained to do. (perhaps I should of not used the knife as a visual to de-esculate the matter) But it did and it worked as I intended it too.

If u think for a second two grown men could not kill or do physical damage or bodily harm to one guy (regaurdless of his skill level, personal or public position held ie. police officer, martial arts instructor etc...) u are sadly mistaken.. I've seen guys w/ thier faces beaten in, skulls crushed, stabbed to death or worse.. So as it is said better to be JUDGED BY 12 RATHER THAN CARRIED BY 6....

these guys probably go around every weeknd starting crap w/ people all the time and probaby gets scared cowards who are too afraid to stand up to them... WELL Last night went bad for them..shows that if u stand up to evil u will prevail or die.. but u cannot fear death.. "Yeah though I walk thru the valley of the shadows of death, I will fear no evil!!!

I hope that for those of u if ever put in my situation would of acted simular and protected your loved ones... it is our duty as men to do so..

These situations is what seperates TRUE MARTIAL ARTIST who train for these situations over those armchair internet jockeys who thrives on telling others how they would of reacted and telling them how wrong they are for doing what they believe is right!... AND HAS NEVER BEEN IN A FIGHT OR ACTUAL SD SITUATION and would not know how to handle it.

thats what these forums are for.. truth and helping teach not filling up wasted space w/ useless information..

And finally, as for the girl friend yeah.. when she gets home from work today were gonna have a sit down and discuss this and explain that her getting into the middle was wrong. again hindsite is usually 20/20 and we can all live and learn today from yesterday's happenings for tomorrows bringings..

have a wonderful weekend

Cory


Cory,

I am concerned. You seem defensive. This means you might have more to think about. I do not know as I am not you. So excuse the presumption, just talking to you like I talk to my Military friends and also LEO's who have seen real violence as well.

I agree that you never know what you are going to run into on the street. you never know if they are better or better armed. I have run across those that had numbers weapons and better pockets or dads with pockets to provide lawyers. I say this as you stated it was self defense and as a first responder or front line person you might get a chance to make this call for others, but when it is yourself it is other people who get to make this call. You might get the benefit as a LEO, but some ADA's do not care and some are looking to make a name for themselves. Yes Politics can effect your overall chances on if you are charged.

I agree that we should be allowed to defend ourselves. I agree we should not be afraid to leave our homes.

I am different from you, and different experiences. But evertime I have had a knife in my pocket I have not had a chance to get it out. And the times I have had to be able to pull it the threat was not immediate, for what is the threat of just two or three guys just talking. I am speaking from the ADA point of view or the detective point of view. These qustions were asked of me. I remember being questioned a lot. I never got used to it as it was never the same. I never learned to like it or go with it or play with it. It sucked every time. So, devil's advocate question, what is the threat? So they took their shirt off. Maybe they were just hot? Why did you strike them first? You know this makes you the agressor. (* NOTE: I did strike first as some times when they are hitting themselves to dump adrenaline it is the right time to hit them and stop them. But to the ADA and ectectives you have now become the agressor. Or at least that is what evert LEO and Lawyer I have discussed this with has told me. *) So now you are the agressor, right? And you pull a weapon and up the level of your threat. I am confused by your statement that you thought there was danger, when you already had knocked them down each once. DId you not already have the situation in control?

(* End ADA - Dectective questions *)

I say this from my experience. Logic and level of threat, i.e. volume of their comments, body posture, and possible weapons of theirs that are not found, all contribute, but you can still be in trouble.

As to 20/20 qnd Tuesday Morning QB'ing the event, I was not there. But I have done things verbally that has reduced the level of threat many times.

i.e. "hey do you have insurance? I do. Mine is great, no deductable. I hope yours is good as well, because you will be in the hospital for a long time." - This slowed them down as they wondered if the "FUN" was going to be worth the payment. They ended up leaving. Now, they did attack some other people on the way out, but I defended myself verbally without going in for questioning. As many of the LEO's have told me it is not my place to potect others, even if I see it in process.

"Hey you had better becareful or I will stand up and you will punch me and I will fall down and break your ankle when I hit the ground. You would not liek that." The drunks usually do not get this, but their semi drunk friends or more sober friends get this.

So, I wish you the best in trying to figure out why this is bothering you.

Good Luck
 
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kailat

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After last night, I have to question why do we carry blades? Self Defense Purposes, Industrial reasons, because its cool and makes us feel superior?

Well, today after an incident last night I have to re ask myself WHY DO I CARRY A BLADE? less than 24 hrs ago I would answer this question "For Self Defense"... But when that moment comes can u, will u use it? Can u live w/ yourself the next day? Would you think to yourself there are several other things you could use instead of a knife or knives to defend yourself? What if its all you have?

I'll tell u what, right now! TODAY! Im not sure I will carry a blade on my person again in public. Because I had almost used mine in a self defense situation and I realized it was too convenient to go for it w/out thought. Pure instinct to pull it out and use it w/out really thinking of the outcome.. I think in many cases there are far more reasons why not to carry a knife than why to carry one... It's like the old saying goes. U pull out a weapon you had better be prepared to use it and take on all responsibilities for your actions.. I realize today that our govt wants us to live in a constant state of fear and to be slaves to our society.

We are being primmed as slaves where self defense is not an option. Slavery to our society where the thugs, and criminals will over run our streets and where the common citizen is in fear of going downtown, or going to an establishment for enjoyment without fear of becoming a victim of our society and the bad guys.. so its easier for us to sit at home hoping we will be safe.. but once u step outside and are outside you are at the weakness of your government and the very laws that were made to protect you and in one intance u are the victim and the law sees you as the problem...

For so long I have seen the law from one side... From the eyes of the govt. How they wanted me to see it.. It is not until you yourself are put in a position and realize rather quickly that the laws that are meant to protect u in fact are against you.


In a law enforcement world, we are taught to instinctivly draw our side arm "service gun" when a threat arises. I think, in truth in a state of panic you react to what you know. And since from a perspective of if I were on duty and outnumbered like such I'd of used one of my improvised weapons ie. Baton, OC, or even firearm. In a civilian aspect carryng a folding knife when a heighten sense of threat is arose you draw on your own instinct. I think in truth that is why the knife came out..

I'm the first to admit I was wrong in that regaurd. But as i spoke if i had not defused the situation the way i did.. i may not of beeen here to talk about this today...
 

kaizasosei

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Sounds like you scared the crap out of those poor bastards...

good thing that you weren't too drunk to fight, but i think you might have overreacted a wee bit.
Sometimes that is a good strategy and it definately sounds like it worked but i think you should be more careful considering that one of the multiple attackers sometimes has backup arms...
that is why the only thing that really shocked me is that you pulled a blade on them when you were already in control. That would most likely have provoked them to escalate had they been armed.
The way you described yourself, it sounds that either your goons were really puny, or you were acting really comical. May have been funny, but situations such as what you describe can turn ugly. I would never pull i blade unless it was a last resort. And the strategy of showing and threatening with a blade does seem a little goonish if you ask me.

i respect you for being able to defend yourself, but i don't think you should have had as much fun as you had. Even if you were safe and 'won the fight'-

There are many ways to control people without killing them. Things are not so black and white. Chances are your attackers were NOT ready to kill you. I just hope for your sake that you are able to be as enthusiastic when those who are ready and prepared to kill you make a move.

j
 
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kailat

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Rich,

I think this is bothering me mainly because I did know better to act the way I did.

I'll be honest carrying aknife has been a part of my attire no matter if on duty, or off duty my knives go w/me everywere everday. Has for years since I was a child I've always carried pocket knives. I never actually thoght id ever have to use one. YES, there was a level of threat that was brought on to me. The guy actually took his shirt off as a display of intimidation towards me, sorry I don't intimidate easily! His cursing at me and bodly mistaken me for someone else as I told him repeatedly I was not who he was looking for. He invaded my personal space by getting in my face, spraying his spit on my face which i can still taste and smelll his awful drunk breath as if it was happening now.. knda makes my stomach upset now... but i think that was what provoked me to react and knock him on his buttocks. HIs buddy then starting his crap off to my side where my gf was initially between him and I. I may have yes made first contact but that was because bad breath man was in my face pushing my buttons while I then saw his sidekick starting to come toward me.. it was then just a natural instinctive motion to draw from my hip as I saw the guy BBG getting off the ground coming back up for who knows what! And his buddy advancing toward me and w/ my gf in the middle to get hurt by him.. the knife was used to defuse and act as an instrument to show them to STOP because it was apparent my verbal directives were not making a difference.

It was then that the 2nd guy stopped and said ok. then at that moment situation B) was difused.. knife was immedietly put away sitution A) w/ BBG come up to me to HUGME as if it was all good he realized he had made a mistake.. ok, for one u don't go from threatening someone to wanting tohug them. a complete strnger. SORRRY not in my book.. so yes, I reacted again.. wrongly?? Maybe by jaw checking him w/ a right hook I did not want to be his buddy and I didn't want to validate his actions at that moment by giving him a second to glorify his actions for the crap he had just put me thru..
so yeah im a little defensive. 1) because im upset it happend in the first place.. 2) because i am second guessing myself and im questioning everything I believe in is now WRONG! I don't know if i was wrong or not.. YES in the eyes of Mans laws it was not right. but to me I think it's just anther scape goat at how government turns against us as free nation..

It's done, it's over lesson learned from all parties included! I have a new outlook on self defense and realize how u can go from victim to the one in question in a matter of events.. It's a double edged sword.. your cut either way you go... defend yourself go to jail, don't defend yourself get hurt and possibly die..

its a lose lose situation
 
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kailat

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Sounds like you scared the crap out of those poor bastards...

good thing that you weren't too drunk to fight, but i think you might have overreacted a wee bit.
Sometimes that is a good strategy and it definately sounds like it worked but i think you should be more careful considering that one of the multiple attackers sometimes has backup arms...
that is why the only thing that really shocked me is that you pulled a blade on them when you were already in control. That would most likely have provoked them to escalate had they been armed.
The way you described yourself, it sounds that either your goons were really puny, or you were acting really comical. May have been funny, but situations such as what you describe can turn ugly. I would never pull i blade unless it was a last resort. And the strategy of showing and threatening with a blade does seem a little goonish if you ask me.

i respect you for being able to defend yourself, but i don't think you should have had as much fun as you had. Even if you were safe and 'won the fight'-

There are many ways to control people without killing them. Things are not so black and white. Chances are your attackers were NOT ready to kill you. I just hope for your sake that you are able to be as enthusiastic when those who are ready and prepared to kill you make a move.

j


yeah, well my actions were not at all comical or was I laughing and dancing around.. In fact I was a bit outraged (that was part of my problem) I have a NO TOLERENCE for ignorance mentality. These people like these guys really jerked my chain quickly and I was not going to allow them to bad mouth me and my gf for no reason..

let's see his exact words were as he was approaching me " There you are you son of a "B" u think u can get me kicked out of the bar and Im not gonna do anything. I told u i was gonna F you up!" at this tiime I looked at him and said ' HEY BRO, not the guy I am not who u think I am" , he continued w/ something like " F you u punk MF'er I'll beat your head in" at this time his shirt comes off and he threw it on the ground, I then was heated. all this happend in like mere seconds now mind u. I stated" u are crossing the line and you are about to make a big mistake i warn u to stop." THEN he was in my face just screaming.. i said something, but i remember i told him to back off and we were going home and somewhere i was an officer and i think i pushed him or done some take down,truthfully i don't even know how he fell..thats the weird thng. i have no idea how i put him there.. but i gained about 4 to 5 feet away as his buddy started at me..and u know the rest of the story.. so no i was not happy and i didn't want to fight either of them let alone hurt them or kill them. having control of the fight was not my thought process at that moment.. i saw 3 shades of red at that time.. I still am furious today about this.. i wish i knew who those guys where as I'd like to know. but its probably best I don't.

as i said, its done..it's over. i just wanted to post the whole thing as a training tool to show how things go from 0-60 and good nght to bad night in seconds.. and use my example as a bad judgment call when situaion like this happens if ever happen to anyone on here.
 

jks9199

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as i said, its done..it's over. i just wanted to post the whole thing as a training tool to show how things go from 0-60 and good nght to bad night in seconds.. and use my example as a bad judgment call when situaion like this happens if ever happen to anyone on here.

You've got a great point there. Dynamic situations develop just that way -- dynamically. Things heat up fast, and the specifics change in an instant. It's important to understand and realize that.

But I'm going to draw another lesson from it...

If you (plural, not specific) choose to carry ANY weapon, you need to accept all the responsibility related to that. Which may mean making sure that your judgment isn't impaired.
 

Rich Parsons

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Rich,

I think this is bothering me mainly because I did know better to act the way I did.

I'll be honest carrying aknife has been a part of my attire no matter if on duty, or off duty my knives go w/me everywere everday. Has for years since I was a child I've always carried pocket knives. I never actually thoght id ever have to use one. YES, there was a level of threat that was brought on to me. The guy actually took his shirt off as a display of intimidation towards me, sorry I don't intimidate easily! His cursing at me and bodly mistaken me for someone else as I told him repeatedly I was not who he was looking for. He invaded my personal space by getting in my face, spraying his spit on my face which i can still taste and smelll his awful drunk breath as if it was happening now.. knda makes my stomach upset now... but i think that was what provoked me to react and knock him on his buttocks. HIs buddy then starting his crap off to my side where my gf was initially between him and I. I may have yes made first contact but that was because bad breath man was in my face pushing my buttons while I then saw his sidekick starting to come toward me.. it was then just a natural instinctive motion to draw from my hip as I saw the guy BBG getting off the ground coming back up for who knows what! And his buddy advancing toward me and w/ my gf in the middle to get hurt by him.. the knife was used to defuse and act as an instrument to show them to STOP because it was apparent my verbal directives were not making a difference.

It was then that the 2nd guy stopped and said ok. then at that moment situation B) was difused.. knife was immedietly put away sitution A) w/ BBG come up to me to HUGME as if it was all good he realized he had made a mistake.. ok, for one u don't go from threatening someone to wanting tohug them. a complete strnger. SORRRY not in my book.. so yes, I reacted again.. wrongly?? Maybe by jaw checking him w/ a right hook I did not want to be his buddy and I didn't want to validate his actions at that moment by giving him a second to glorify his actions for the crap he had just put me thru..
so yeah im a little defensive. 1) because im upset it happend in the first place.. 2) because i am second guessing myself and im questioning everything I believe in is now WRONG! I don't know if i was wrong or not.. YES in the eyes of Mans laws it was not right. but to me I think it's just anther scape goat at how government turns against us as free nation..

It's done, it's over lesson learned from all parties included! I have a new outlook on self defense and realize how u can go from victim to the one in question in a matter of events.. It's a double edged sword.. your cut either way you go... defend yourself go to jail, don't defend yourself get hurt and possibly die..

its a lose lose situation

Cory,

It is a loose loose situation. I carry a knife on me when I can. At work they do not allow knives (* Safety - even as tools must use the box cutting razor tools instead which I have one at my desk at work *). And yes the first time I thought I had killed someone with my actions, I second guessed what I did and why. I second guessed everything and I hesitated. This is actually the phase of my life where I got hurt the most. I cannot say how it will effect you or how to react, but from my experience you need to review what you did and then move forward with what you decide is best. But do not review it every time a situation happens. Yes live through it and then review it afterwards for places to improve. This will hopefully limit the injuries you might take.

I wish you the best in your reviewing and decisions making.

Thanks
 

Brian King

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Cory
Thanks for posting your after action report and for doing so as honestly as you did. There are many lessons to be learned from any conflict that we engage in. It is important sir to review our actions, our justifications and the actions of those around us (not just those directly involved in the conflict but even those observing it) and I congratulate and thank you for doing just that, it is not easy to do especially publicly so that others may also learn from the lessons. It is important when reviewing to not only focus on the negatives but to at all time realize that you are still alive and writing. You can do everything right and still end up dead but in this case you came home. It is also human nature to focus on the negatives and forget the positives. We and others see what we did wrong or could have done differently and beat ourselves up (for perhaps the second time if we lost the conflict) over and over often forgetting or ignoring what we did right. What we did correctly also needs to be reinforced and is just as important as trying to learn from what we could have done better.

Sometimes God whispers and sometimes He yells. This conflict happened for a reason and lessons needed to be learned. You have learned, those two woofers maybe learned a lesson or two and hopefully your lady also learned a lesson. Everyone made it home with just a little worse for ware and a little blood letting even though violence happened. Violence is always just around the corner, being aware of this, and how we and those dear to us might react to it is valuable to understand even as the price of that understanding can be very costly.

I would not be too hard on your girlfriend and do not recommend dumping or getting rid of her over her reactions/actions. A good woman is hard to come by but while she does not have to become Xena warrior queen she will have to come to an understanding with you and what she can do to help you, before, during and after conflict. A few examples of what I am referring to. While I was a bouncer I dated a young lady that was a professional singer. One of the things I really enjoyed about her was that she was very outgoing and personable while I can go two or three days without feeling the need for conversation. She is able to talk to anybody and often did. This was uncomfortable for me at first until we came to an understanding. We came up with a system of code words and touch signals (the strength of the grip told us the urgency and importance of our silent communication). We had words for me to tell her I am tired, shut down the conversation so that we can leave- I am ready to go home now, we had a word and touch in which I was actually asking her if she had this situation under control and had different reply signals for her to answer which included yup I have this under control thanks for asking honey, yup I have this under control but stay here next to me and another for yes, but it is a little scary so if you want feel free to step in but be nice, and the Glad that you are here my caveman, please step in and deal with this as you see fit. We even had a signal that she could give me that said that she thought she can handle the situation and for me to reign in and we used this a couple of times as she was a good talker and could defuse a situation when I was more likely to do my talking with my fists or whatever.We also had both code words and touch signals that brokered no argument or questioning. One signaled we are leaving say your goodbyes, another was we are leaving right now rudeness be danged. One signal we worked out was that her reply to the signal was that she would nicely ask for my car keys understanding that her job was to have the keys ready and if/when action started she did not get involved but went and started the car and got ready to leave. I would join her right after resolution or escape. We also did some scenario work, not so she would become a great fighter (although she did have some talent and toughness) but so she would know what to expect from me and how I moved and fought and she could practice helping by moving to safety before during and after the conflict, realizing that we need to be able to communicate (both verbally and using eyes and body language) before during and after the conflict and that it was both of our jobs to give and receive communication. We both learned how the other reacted and how we could best work as a team doing what was best for the other. We both had strengths that we learned to trust and rely on and recognized that the other had strengths as well and that with practice we could trust each others strengths and value both the strengths and weaknesses.

Your mileage will vary but your lady now knows better what you are capable of and to her credit she did not run, scream or faint. Not everyone no matter their level of martial experience can say the same of their reaction to violence.

Training to fight while protecting others is a very high level of work and not easy but if in a relationship it is of course in my opinion worth it, and if not in a relationship it is still worth it and interesting as it forces you to work in a different manner than you might be used to working. It is interesting that many police officers have a hard time doing this as their natural predilection is to close with the bad guy and control the situation. When protecting others this is often not the correct course of action.

Thanks again for the honest AAR
Warmest Regards
Brian King
 

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