Kneeling on the neck?

[Bob Hubbard]

A discussion I'm following on another site had a photo of a LEO in riot gear handcuffing a prone individual, with a knee very clearly on the persons neck. Given my limited knowledge of arrest procedures, is this common or accepted? It seems dangerous to me.

Photo Link

(Note, not intending on a criticism of the act, etc, just looking for clarification on if it's accepted or discouraged, etc.)

 

[theletch1]

Not an LEO here but train with several who've stated that the knee to the neck is pretty standard in this area. It allows for better control of the individual than attempting to control a large area of mass like the torso. 'Course a smart guy wouldn't have to be taken down to be cuffed in the first place.

 

[zeeberex]

Not an LEO here but train with several who've stated that the knee to the neck is pretty standard in this area. It allows for better control of the individual than attempting to control a large area of mass like the torso. 'Course a smart guy wouldn't have to be taken down to be cuffed in the first place.

It's excessive force, hence it's wrong.

 

[Jimi]

I don't think it's excessive. It also is very common on law enforcement. Just ask Rodney King if he would rather have had a knee on his neck for a few instants while being cuffed, or beaten with a night stick repeatedly. That situation was excessive force. If you have ever seen that King footage you would see that any one of those officers could have stepped up and placed his body weight on him and had control quickly as supposed to beating him down. If you resist an officer (RIGHTLY) apprehending you, he is well with-in his rights to hold you down with a knee to keep himself , other officers & the scene under control. It's the "I wanna pull that hippies ponytail off of his head because he was stoned dancing on the Mall in DC for the Fourth Of July smoke in" that is excessive to my sensibilities.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Now, given my own limited knowledge of spinal mechanics, the idea of a 200lb person kneeling on it seems, dangerous. Wouldn't you have the same amount of control but a safer situation going across the top of the back? Or is that not practical?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Standard operating procedure. At least, it used to be. Used to teach a clinic on control & submission tactics at a local Academy located in a JC. But then again, I also used to teach carotid chokeholds, and they have since been discontinued as part of the allowed responses here in Cali.

I say screw it: Just shoot 'em. Folks are gonna complain no matter what LEO's do, and no matter how hard they try to keep it civil. I remember when I was in Europe, and the wall was still up. We had a NATO dude tell us...while visiting the other side of Berlin, if der Polizei say halt, you halt. Cuz if'n you don't, one officer will burst his weapon in a left-to-right angle, and the other in a right-to-left forming an "X" with you in the middle, and they will not ask you twice. I dunno if he was lying to this day, but we were on our best behavior. Wasn't the threat of being shot, but the conviction it was so.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Now, given my own limited knowledge of spinal mechanics, the idea of a 200lb person kneeling on it seems, dangerous. Wouldn't you have the same amount of control but a safer situation going across the top of the back? Or is that not practical?

Neck affords greater control. All arrest submissions against a resistant arrestee involve some degree of risk.

 

[kaizasosei]

on the picture displayed, the one kneeling is not kneeling right on the neck. if he would be, the guy on the floor would not look quite as relaxed as he does and the neck would be more bent(most likely with the ear touching the ground). although it is very close and he may have pressed the neck more at some point before or after this shot was taken, at the exact moment the picture was taken, most the pressure seems to me to be on the back of the shoulder with only around 10% of the pressure on the neck.

just the facts. if another person with less skill were to attempt this, it may well end in greater injury. a couple of years back there was a case over here were the police kneeled on an immigrants chest so forcefully that he couldnt breath anymore and died as a result. also, even more recently, the police blew away a motorbike thief as he attempted to ride off. being a leo calls not only for some kind of judgement skills, but also the ability to know one's own strength and the limits of others.

i myself, getting used to bjj and freefighting am having to get used to using greater amounts of force even just in training. if done with moderate control, the body can take a fair bit of punishment without sustaining any real injury, but again, there is a fine line and it does require a fair bit of skill and knowledge of human anatomy if not simple empathy..

j

 

[shesulsa]

On the picture ... his knee is actually on the spine towards the base of the kneck - I'm not seeing a lot of pressure there, but it doesn't take a lot. I'm not current on standard procedure for riot and crowd control, but it seems relatively minor compared to what may be allowed.

On one hand, police need to be able to control the unruly and that might require tactics that are not popular. LTL tech has helped in that regard that people who might have been shot before are tazed and people who might have been beaten before are now sprayed.

On the other hand, we have to look at abuse of position and it pains me to hear LEOs and trainers of LEOs say things like, "screw it, just shoot 'em" as much as it pains me to hear the democrats of Chicago make excuses for their corruption and republicans of Alaska defend their governor. I realize it's all a game, but surely one gets into law enforcement in the interest of public good ... no?

Let's allow the police the tactics they NEED ... and hold them accountable when they blatantly go beyond need.

 

[theletch1]

There's certainly a difference between pinning the neck with your knee and crushing it. You apply the amount of force needed to control the person on the ground. If they struggle you apply a little more force. If they decide to comply and lay still you can ease up a bit. As kaizasosei and Shesulsa said, there isn't a ton of pressure on the guys neck in the photo... but it's close enough to apply some serious force if needed. I don't see it, in any way as excessive force.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

So, it's there in more a deterrent manner than a "crush his neck and cripple him" way. Here, we have a broad experience base to look at such things, while elsewhere it's not looked at from an informed perspective. Thanks!

 

[morph4me]

There's certainly a difference between pinning the neck with your knee and crushing it. You apply the amount of force needed to control the person on the ground. If they struggle you apply a little more force. If they decide to comply and lay still you can ease up a bit. As kaizasosei and Shesulsa said, there isn't a ton of pressure on the guys neck in the photo... but it's close enough to apply some serious force if needed. I don't see it, in any way as excessive force.

You beat me to it Jeff . In that position it's a simple matter of shifting weight slightly one way or the other to add or release pressure, depending on the amount of resistance your getting. Considering the position of the officer, it's probably the safest way to get the cuffs on without worrying about the guy thrashing around.

 

[Archangel M]

The kneeling on the upper back thing is a common and valid technique for immobilizing a suspect for cuffing... With the riot visor and kneepads on he may be a little high on the back but there is daylight showing through the area of the throat and the ground so obviously there isn't pressure being applied to the trachea etc.

Has nobody watched "Cops"??? This is done ALL the time.

 

[Drac]

A discussion I'm following on another site had a photo of a LEO in riot gear handcuffing a prone individual, with a knee very clearly on the persons neck. Given my limited knowledge of arrest procedures, is this common or accepted? It seems dangerous to me.

Photo Link

(Note, not intending on a criticism of the act, etc, just looking for clarification on if it's accepted or discouraged, etc.)

We are taught to NEVER kneel on anyones neck..

 

[kidswarrior]

We are taught to NEVER kneel on anyones neck..

I'm not LE, but...

Strictly from a MA instruction perspective, and with the additional insight of having received a serious neck (cervical) injury from a training partner using a very, very small amount of force, much less the possibility of someone kneeling on it, I teach the guys to stay away from the spine altogether--unless it's really life-or-death.

Now if the technique is working for various departments, all good. But seems all it would take is one guy to slip on wet pavement while kneeling, or have a leg muscle cramp causing all his weight to drop, and you've got a catastrophe. Or maybe I'm just getting old and sceery... :idunno:

 

[Archangel M]

Im of the opinion that this officer isnt kneeling on the offenders neck. Perhaps high up on the back, but far from dangerous. Ive knealt on people like that and you can shift your weight about so that there is hardly any pressure on the person at all, to enough force to pin the person down.

The issue here is the politics surrounding the RNC, not police use of force, dont be fooled.

 

[MJS]

Looking at that pic. it seems to me the majority of the officers weight is on the back, not the neck. His shin appears to be on the neck, but I doubt that much pressure is on it.

What always amazes me, especially when people talk about too much force, is they seem to forget what led up to that. Now, I'm NOT saying that LEOs should be the crap out of someone, but if they're trying to make an arrest, and the person is being an ***, fighting, struggling, etc., then ya know what...you get what you deserve, and if that means being brought to the ground HARD and fast, then so be it.

Perhaps next time, the suspect will think twice about being an ***. Of course, it looks like the cop was in riot gear, so chances are, many people were being asses.

 

[Archangel M]

A photo is also a capture of a brief moment in time. Many righteous situations can be made to appear wrong when captured at a particular moment.

 

[Sukerkin]

That is quite true, Angel. Also, as MJS said above, the very fact that the officer is in riot gear suggests that this is not some trivial offender being treated with excessive 'zeal'.

However, behind this specific instance is the very real danger of the build up of a 'screw the lot of them' institutional mentality. What I mean by this is the level of frustration within the LEO organisation building up to the point wherein anyone commiting a criminal act, however minor (or standing up for their rights where officers have made a mistake) is 'fair game'.

That is not a good state of affairs to look over the edge of the cliff at.

Of course, the flip side, is that we all expect the police to be telepathic Paladins who know that we are 'good', who never have a bad day and who never screw up. That's just unrealistic and is why, whenever I've had contact with the police (the whole three times ), I have been as open, accomodating and polite as I could be.

 

[MJS]

A photo is also a capture of a brief moment in time. Many righteous situations can be made to appear wrong when captured at a particular moment.

So very true. We have no idea what led up to the person being put on the ground with the officer on him. For all we know, he could've taken a swing at the LEO.