Favourite Haymaker Defence.

myusername

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Hello everyone. Last week in my Jujutsu class we were looking at defending yourself from someone swinging haymaker punches at your head. As I'm sure most will probably know the haymaker is the common swinging punch thrown from the pub brawler. It's not quite a hook but more of a flailing arm with a fist at the end! Don't know how else to describe it really....

Anyway, we practiced a few techniques ranging from blocking and striking to grappling and take downs. One that has really stood in my mind is covering up well and moving in towards the person nice and close, strike the face with an elbow to distract them and using your left hand throw their right arm well over your right shoulder whilst moving your right arm round the back of their head grasping your bicep on the left arm with your right hand. The left hand is applying pressure on the persons fore head. This should result in the attcker being strangled by their own right arm. You can then take the person to the floor controlling their head.

Don't know if I explained that right as its hard without images. Like I said it was just one of many we tried but I remember finding that one comfortable and effective.

But I bet with the wealth of knowledge on this forum there are some great moves for defending against a haymaker punch.

So please offer your favourite defence. If it is quite simply a perfectly valid straight punch to the attackers nose then please play the game and mention an alternative to complement your answer!

Cheers all and I am looking forward to your suggestions! :)
 

bostonbomber

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Nice thing about someone throwing a haymaker punch at you is that they are easy to see coming (since it moves in a wide arc, the fist must cover much more distance than a straight punch). My preference is to step in with an elbow or step back, avoid the punch and kick to the leg.
 

kaizasosei

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nice. so you go straight into the choke the arm and neck using the left hand to pull the head back...cool.

In past real fights. I usually would bob and weave and fortunately havent been hit since highschool by a flailing haymaker. But i have to say, it always feels like i just barely managed to dodge and usually it's really uncomfortable because i couldn't really see exactly what was going on, i just sortof ducked and wove out of it sometimes mostly by feel alone.

j
 
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myusername

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I like it. Most of the techniques we used in the session involved moving towards the attacker. At this stage in my martial development I think that If I were not expecting the attack, instinctively, I would probably move backwards and then hopefully correct myself if there is a second swing!

There was a good point in another thread about haymakers and that was sometimes you don't see them coming if you are experiencing an adrenaline rush as one of the side effects is narrowing/tunnel vision.
 

Xue Sheng

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This sounds like a job for Xingyiquan Paoquan (cannon fist) which will angle and step in as well as use the block with one arm to draw them in and then strike with the other fist

Or Taijiquan step back underhand grab the offending wrist and help it along its way and either let it go and give them a helpful push or hold on redirect and pull it back and use the other hand to put pressure on the elbow and slam them to the floor.

EDIT

Sorry I should have added this to make it a bit more clear Paoquan
 

allenjp

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using your left hand throw their right arm well over your right shoulder whilst moving your right arm round the back of their head grasping your bicep on the left arm with your right hand. The left hand is applying pressure on the persons fore head. This should result in the attcker being strangled by their own right arm. You can then take the person to the floor controlling their head.:)

This technique is called an arm triangle in BJJ. It is similar to the standard triangle choke (sankaku jime) in that it positions the opponent's own arm on one side of thier neck to strangle them, but of course it is performed with your arms instead of your legs. Since it is done with the arms it can be applied standing, as well as from the guard or from the mount. It is a great one but the timing has to be perfect in order to pull it off in response to a punch like you describe.

If someone is throwing haymakers at me I have a pretty good idea that they are not a trained fighter, in which case I would probably immediately change levels when they are committed to the punch, and attack the legs. That way you can avoid the punch and get the takedown in one smooth movement.

Or after switching levels I might go for a clinch from which I could execute a good clean throw. A good hard throw onto a hard surface has a good chance of ending the fight right there. (at least for the first attacker) Then you could get ready for the next guy if he's still dumb enought to come after you.

Of course my decision to go for a throw would also be helped by the knowledge that if he (or she, we are not sexist here) is throwing slobberknockers, he is probably not trained to fight at all which makes my chances of executing a throw very good...
 

Nolerama

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I like the idea of a duck-under, and then taking the guy's back. If he's throwing a haymaker, I'm going to agree with allen: he's not an experienced fighter. Taking his back gives me a lot of safe options, especially if there's the possibility of fighting his buddies in the very near future. Break him down, sink a choke... maybe take advantage of a very open kidney area to use as a makeshift punching bag... proceed with a ballistic take down...embarrass the guy for throwing a haymaker... hit on his girlfriend... I don't know. But I would prefer to take back in that kind of situation.

It gives me a few moments longer to decide the level of response.

If it's an all-out brawl, I'd like to fortress-fight that blow with the facing arm, hand cupping the back of my head, step in and throw a clean uppercut to the chin/nose. Maybe enough blood will be spilled so when I jab out, the guy is demoralized from the hit.

The bottom line: haymakers are a godsend to a fighter. And the crazy thing is that lots of people, even UFC fan boys (the ones that don't train), throw punches like that. If a certain demographic of aggressors are out there that don't know how to throw a proper puch, I say keep them there.
 

Ahriman

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I like to move in to grab the attacker's head with both hands and pull his head into mine, preferably his face into my forehead (I don't have problems with hitting his forehead with mine either - I have a circa 30*30mm area on my forehead where the bone is much thicker than elsewhere). Of course grabbing in this case doesn't mean simply extending my arms; it's a more circular or angular movement, which results in a strong forearm block, which results in a good amount of pain on the attacker's side.
I hope it was clear enough...
 

exile

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Standard TKD-type response: close the distance, deflect with advanced arm (you should have been in a 'fence' configuration as soon as you saw trouble brewing, eh?), and then:

(i) hard palm-heel to the middle of the face, or
(ii) slam other elbow into the attacker's face, followed by knife-hand strike to attacker's throat with the same hand, or
(iii) inverted knifehand strike to the attacker's throat with the other hand, or...

... you get the idea. The crucial point is go in close. Just make sure you've got your radar working so that you're ready to get those hands and arms out there in a 'placating' fence gesture that can turn in an instant into (i), (ii), (iii) or...

... and a hard knee strike to the groin or low side kick to break the assailant's knee joint is worth considering as a final reprimand... :EG:
 

Blindside

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Assuming a right punch, go straight inside, right (lead) arm forearm to the neck/brachial plexus and the left arm jams/blocks opponent's bicep, a little hop into a right knee to the groin. Follow with another close range technique, probably an elbow.
 

Noah_Legel

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I always liked stepping into it with a double-block with the edges of my arms to stop it, then grabbing the arm and pulling them into a nice elbow to the temple followed with a knee to the groin. My second favorite has to be stepping in and guiding the haymaker with a double-block, only to grab on and throw them with tai otoshi, followed by any number of stomp-kicks and jointlocks
 

hpulley

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My first reaction just because we trained for this Monday night would probably be a knife hand block, knife hand chop to the side of the neck, ridge hand to the back of the head with a spear hand to the throat, then a knee to the groin or head depending on whether or not he has crumpled yet. But there are a lot of other choices.

Inside middle or shuto block to the haymaker then depending on how close you are: straight punch to the face, palm strike to the face, spear hand to the throat, knife hand chop to the neck followed by ridge hand to the back of the head with one hand and a spear hand to the throat with the other, punch or palm strike to solar plexis, knee or kick to groin followed by punch to head or solar plexis, grab back of head and elbow with the other hand followed by backfist to the head. Or you can catch the arm, grab his collar and throw him with osoto gari.

As someone said above, the key is to react fast enough to block the haymaker or if there is enough room, to back up out of the way and kick from a distance which is yet another choice. Don't think about it too much or he'll have hit you already and in the right spot anyone could go down from a heavy man's haymaker.

The double handed windmill is the other good drunkard tactic which is essentially just haymakers thrown in succession. Blocking one and hitting him hard will probably stop it or a good kick up the middle.
 

morph4me

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I can't say it's my favorite, but it's the one I find myself using most when I train. Stepping and pivotin inside the punch, parrying the arm down while pushing his head onto his shoulder, which is moving toward the ground, and seeing how deep I can plant him.
 

trainable

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I am a PDR and Kenpo practitioner, and I would use Coach Blauer's SPEAR Tactic. If you havent seen it, you can check out Coach here : http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFitBlauer_SpearIsBridge.wmv

I dont train for technique anymore, because trying to select a technique to match a particular attack takes time. Watch in the dojo the next time a normally right handed attacker switches to a left unannounced. See how much clean technique he uses in defending himself, if he can at all. Not all fights will give you the opportunity to get into a stance, select the foot or hand you will respond with, or fire your favorite technique. Musashi said that you must make your fighting stance your everyday stance, and make your everyday stance your fighting stance. Self defense is just that, you have to fight from the position you are in. The badguy controls the energy.

If you are talking about squaring off and jawjacking yourself into a fight, move this thread to MMA or "fighting" because the minute you are a consentual participant to beginning a fight (read, adopting a fighting stance and raising your fists), you are consenting and therefore guilty of mutual combat according to most courts. Train smart, you cant always do your best move. Coach Blauer is always quoting strategy, and the one I like best is "The height of strategy is not in doing your best move, but the worst move for your attacker". I cant remember who's words they are, but they ring true. Most of the street issues I have had were not so telegraphed. That includes the haymaker from a second attacker.
 

allenjp

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Like the video, it's not a technique that no one's seen before, but it would seem to be effective.

Theoretically I agree with your statement that you should not be assuming a fighting stance and "jawjacking" with the guy. That is, if by "jawjacking" you mean to say exchanging threats and insults, and generally escalating things to a fight.

But the truth is that there are situations in which someone may actually throw a punch at you after talking about it for a while, and it's not always practical to escape the situation. You have to stand your ground. Otherwise, what....? Are you going to turn and run away any time someone starts talking or posturing aggressively? That's not practical.

I think that the correct response is to try to de-escalate the situation by using a low, calm voice, and saying you don't want to fight etc...but if you are ever going to face a potentially violent situation you have to be ready to fight if it comes down to it despite your best efforts.

I agree that one should be assuming a natural stance until the first blow is actually thrown. But many of the techniques described here can be performed easily enough from a natural standing position, provided the person is ready to do so.

And you're right. when the sh** actually hits the fan, it's sometimes hard to think about which foot is going where, where your hand is being placed, etc...but isn't that what all that drilling and excersizes we all do in class all about? To kind of make the movements into muscle memory so you don't have to do a lot of thinking when the time really comes? And let's remember the specific type of attack we are talking about here is a wide arcing punch that is probably thrown by someone who doesn't know what they are doing. That most likely means you'll have a lot more time to think about your move, not only while he's actually throwing the punch, but also while he's doing all his "jawjacking".
 

trainable

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Do you train off balance? Do you train to throw your blows from a non violent posture? Do you train verbal attacks (real ones, not the typical F U), do you go out into the environment and train in between cars?

Im not suggesting that the training you do doesnt work, or wont work, but what you train is what you will do. Fights dont all happen standing facing one another, or even from the person you are arguing with. All I suggest is consider the context in which you train, because Muscle memory is actually mental memory. If you fire the neurons enough, you build the path. The more paths you program, the more tools you have. Off balance, in the dark, on slick surfaces, against multiple attackers. Telegraphing your ability by adopting a fighting stance weakens your possible strategies, so yes, once the first blow has been thrown, get to what you do best, and drive through the opponent.

We are on the same team here, the title of the thread was "Your" favorite defense. Not "The Best for You". Opinions are never lacking here in the MA community. That is just mine based on the many events I have been in and around in the community I work in. Go with what works for you.
 

morph4me

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Great discussion for another thread, but can we keep this one on track please.
 

allenjp

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I agree. That was my point precisely. The title of this thread is favorite defense AGAINST A HAYMAKER. That is a specific situation. I agree with many of your points on how to train, but that's not the point in this discussion.
 

zDom

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The last three times a haymaker came in:

On two I threw a straight punch (reverse hand) as they were still pulling the arm backward for the haymaker. Stopped them so I didn't even need a block.

The third I got smoked in the head because I got sucker punched by a guy off to the side while I was discussing something with his friend in front of me. :rolleyes:
 
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myusername

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Thank you for all your answers so far people. There are some beautiful moves on this thread already. I've been training this evening (I'm from the UK so remember the time difference). We were drilling some more counters today.

My two favourites from tonights session was a double knife hand block (smashing into the wrist and the bicep) to the attackers left haymaker. Using your left, knife hand strike to the carotid artery/throat and then with your right follow through with a palm heel strike to the temple. Kicking out the knee or kick to the groin for a finish.

If receiving a haymaker from the attckers right hand. Use a telephone block (Moving your left hand up to cover head nice and tight as if you are quickily answering a telephone!). From there wrap your left arm over the top of the attacking arm, above the elbow and under the arm pit and up taking them to tippy toes. Using your right hand turn into an arc hand strike/ grab to the throat. Outer Hock throw (hooking your right leg behind the attckers right leg tripping backwards) to the ground holding on to the attcking arm as they fall. Pull them up by the arm so they roll properly on to their side. Pin the head to the floor with your left knee and kneel on their ribs with your right. Use a good figure four wrist lock whilst shouting to any body tempted to wade in that if they come any closer you will snap the persons arm!

Hope the above made sense. Like I said before its hard without images.

In answer to one of the previous posts, in our classes we always fight from the "fence position" with our hands up but palms out in a placating gesture. We do use verbal interaction and shouting sometimes but not all of the times.

Loving every ones contributions and learning a lot. :)
 
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