Dojo / Dojang and religious symbols

[SMP]

I think this is a very good Subject.

Here are some other questions to consider.



Do you think that it is only a religious symbol? - or a way of living?

Is it not allowed because it is a safety concern or because it is a religious symbol?

If a student had a tattoo of a religious symbol that was not covered by your school uniform would you ask them to cover it?

 

[Akula]

I was going to try to stay out of this thread, but here it goes.

My understanding (and please, someone correct me if I'm wrong) is that the head covering is more of a cultural issue, not a religious one. When working with some people from Pakistan previously, the husband approached a swim instructor I know and asked if his wife and kids could take lessons. The answer was yes, and the wife and daughters showed up in full coverings for the first class. They were then informed that this could not work as it is a very large safety issue in water. After talking with the husband, he agreed to allow his family to wear 'western' style suits for the lessons. No problems from then on. All it seemed to come down to was the husband giving permission to his wife and daughters to do this.

Second thought - if allowed, would all of your current students be okay with this, or would they have a problem?

 

[CanuckMA]

The covering of the hair is religious, not a symbol but an obligation. The style and amount is more cultural.

 

[white belt]

Some of the questions have been covered in earlier posts but, the consistency of analysis is noted and appreciated. Thanks for your time and keep sharing.

white belt

 

[bignick]

just checking to see if there have been any further developments...have you had a conversation with the husband about this again?

 

[white belt]

No, I may have a chance tomorrow or Thursday.

Thanks.

 

[bignick]

oh...thanks...just wondering...people kept offering all their advice and opinions...and i was wondering if anything actually got resolved

 

[Maltair]

I'm kinda suprised this point didn't come up...

Just on a business level, you would be closing your doors to all customer's that wear a head dress. Depending on you location, that could be a lot of customers.

 

[white belt]

Update time. The father dropped off the kids for their Tuesday lesson. Went well. Afterwards, as people were gathering their things and exchanging goodbyes, I greeted the dad and let him know in general how his sons did. I mentioned (very cordially) that in reference to our short conversation last week that if he had any further questions on "the topic" discussed I can explain things further. He replied "That's okay, I too can explain things". He made a rather sour expression as he finished his remark, and had his boys bid me goodnight. That was that.

I have my impression of his implication. Opinions are welcome.

Thanks.

 

[bignick]

hmm...well..i don't know how much more you can do other than actually talk in depth with him...you made the offer, he didn't want to take it...but it was made nonetheless....

thanks for the update

 

[CanuckMA]

I'd say that you have just lost 2 students and possibly a number of referals. I don't know the ethnic make up of your location, but you have closed your doors to religious Muslims, Jews and Sikhs. I don't agree with your decision. But it's your dojo.

 

[white belt]

I would have to agree about losing the sons as students soon. You left out demonstrative Christians on the list by the way. The make up of my school is largely Christian, some others who I don't have reason to know, etc. I have Caucasian, Black, Asian and Hispanic ethnicities. If the father is considering me to be a bigot or some other such thing, he is wrong. I am not concerned about his family making trouble, it's the potential backlash from a militant Christian who wants to push the issue of equality. I have and will in the future have that mentality come in for lessons. I am a small business owner and must be vigilant for lawsuits, etc. I have less a chance for legalities with my present situation. I don't like it but, I must make a sacrifice from time to time.

An added note. The family has a close friend (Muslim) who teaches M.A in the area. They chose me because, according to them, I have proven to be more trustworthy. The other gentleman has a rep. for financial greed. What a tangled mess, eh?

I am not giving up on them. They may yet settle down. I appreciate the diversity of perspectives shared guys. I will post any new developments.

Thanks.

 

[kenpo tiger]

I'd say that you have just lost 2 students and possibly a number of referals. I don't know the ethnic make up of your location, but you have closed your doors to religious Muslims, Jews and Sikhs. I don't agree with your decision. But it's your dojo.

I wouldn't exactly put Jews in with the Moslems and Sikhs.

I doubt there are that many ultrareligious Jews in the MidWest, although not knowing where the school is, I wouldn't say that for certain. Besides, they wouldn't be taking martial arts from anyone outside 'the tribe' - trust me on that one.

As to losing referrals, that's a risk you take to stand by your principles, isn't it. I'd rather train with someone with principles (and finally do after two missteps.)

 

[Feisty Mouse]

As to losing referrals, that's a risk you take to stand by your principles, isn't it. I'd rather train with someone with principles (and finally do after two missteps.)

Hear, hear.

 

[CanuckMA]

I wouldn't exactly put Jews in with the Moslems and Sikhs.

I doubt there are that many ultrareligious Jews in the MidWest, although not knowing where the school is, I wouldn't say that for certain. Besides, they wouldn't be taking martial arts from anyone outside 'the tribe' - trust me on that one.

As to losing referrals, that's a risk you take to stand by your principles, isn't it. I'd rather train with someone with principles (and finally do after two missteps.)

Jews are in with Moslems and Sikhs because of the obligation to wear a kipa.

I didn't know where the school was, that's why I asked. I train with a non-Jew. So do many of my friends. And you don't have to be 'ultrareligious' to wear a kipa.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

I wouldn't exactly put Jews in with the Moslems and Sikhs.

Actually, both Jews and Muslims are part of the semetic group of religions and peoples. They are very close cousins, almost one.

The semetic languages include: Hebrew, Syriac, Arabic, Phoenician, and Aramaic.

 

[Flatlander]

Actually, both Jews and Muslims are part of the semetic group of religions and peoples. They are very close cousins, almost one.

The semetic languages include: Hebrew, Syriac, Arabic, Phoenician, and Aramaic.

I'm sorry, but tell that to them. If you think that you've found a way to heal the globe of ethnic disharmony, by all means educate humankind in whatever way you see fit. However, your statement here will not go very far in helping our friend white belt in finding a reasonable solution to the ethnic difficulty in the dojo.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

I'm sorry, but tell that to them. If you think that you've found a way to heal the globe of ethnic disharmony, by all means educate humankind in whatever way you see fit. However, your statement here will not go very far in helping our friend white belt in finding a reasonable solution to the ethnic difficulty in the dojo.

The accepted anthropological classification of Muslims and Jews as Sementic was not any attempt to heal the globe of ethnic disharmony; how in the world did you derive 'that' from a simple and objective scientific explanation that both Muslims and Jews have something in common?

 

[Flatlander]

The accepted anthropological classification of Muslims and Jews as Sementic was not any attempt to heal the globe of ethnic disharmony; how in the world did you derive 'that' from a simple and objective scientific explanation that both Muslims and Jews have something in common?

If not, then your 'scientific explanation' was off topic. I generally interpret the underlying meaning of a post in the context of the discussion at hand. My apology for pointing that out.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Actually, both Jews and Muslims are part of the semetic group of religions and peoples. They are very close cousins, almost one.

The semetic languages include: Hebrew, Syriac, Arabic, Phoenician, and Aramaic.

Interesting, but...
:-offtopic

People of the same general faith often are the most bitter enemies - considered as heretics rather than just the uneducated, faceless outsiders.

:whip1: Sorry, flatlander, for the redundancy.