Dojo / Dojang and religious symbols

[Aaron Little]

White Belt,
I have put a lot of thought into your question, as it is one that is completely new to me. My question regarding the tattoo was more of a seed for thought than anything else. It is my belief that you, as the business owner, should have the right to set the rules pertaining to your business.

For myself I see the individuality of the students as being very important to what we do. There are no uniforms in my classes. With my major demographic being college students I see a vast area of t-shirts in class. Some funny, some political, some religious, and some just plain strange. I do have several students with tattoos. One that comes to mind is on the guy's neck and I am sure some would find it rather offensive. I know that he certainly regrets having it. I have students with odd/unique facial piercings. I do ask them to take them out during class but that is only in regards to the safety of everyone involved. I feel rather comfortable is saying that I have never lost a student due to the appearance of others in the class.

What type of class is it that you do?

 

[Zepp]

I have heard a story from two sources concerning a hospital staff worker who was eating pork in the hospital cafeteria and a coworker reported this to their superiors as an affront to her Muslim faith. The management let it go and the Muslim woman turned and successfully sued the hospital on some type of religious intolerance charge. The hospital then turned around and fired the woman who started this by eating her ham sandwich! Appeals are pending last I heard.

The major difference between this situation and yours is that you're not dealing with employees. You're entitled to make some arbitrary decisions about what you allow your customers to do.

I think the bigger issue is what you mentioned about being accused of favoritism. Dealing with that requires you to assess what kind of atmosphere you have at your dojang.

If you do decide to allow the woman to train while wearing her headscarf, please let us know how it goes.

 

[white belt]

I have a Taekwondo Dojang. I have worked out doing submissions with some talented grapplers / competitors in their club. Tattoos abound. Mean looking guys, nice personalities. A very polite thumping. In my Dojang the students are more the Joe Average / Soccer Mom type. Even though both groups are assets to our community, people do tend to stereotype.

The hospital / work environment, as opposed to club, point is well taken. I brought that story into the mix just as an example of how far some people will go to make a stand. Also how far off center attempted justice can get. Mr. Murphy (of Murphy's law) seems to visit me from time to time. I'm hoping he doesn't have Muslim relatives.

Thanks again for the opportunity to have your thoughts.

 

[Rob Broad]

WhiteBelt

Your jobs is to teach your art, and if the headscarf isn't a safety issue then you should allow it. Your are infringing on her persoanl rights and freedoms. By allowing it to be worn in class you might do a lot towards helping others embrace other cultures. Sometimes instructors see it as their job to help influence their students lives and guide them down the right path. While this may be true with children it really does hold and sway when it comes to adults. You are offering a service, the teaching of your style of martial arts. Just imagine if this woman was a professional cleaner, and you wanted to hire her but she refused because of your beliefs, that wouldn't be fare, and you would feel unjustly dealt with.

Your job is to instruct your style, unless you have a valid reason not to do so then you should teach her. If it was person convicted of assualts then you would have justification not to teach but to not do so because of her head scarf is very prejudice.

 

[kenpo tiger]

I agree with Mark. If you have an established dress code, then there is no issue.

On the other hand - and, mind you, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate - is this woman wears her headscarf at all times, then it would be on her if she was to be attacked, wouldn't it? Just some food for thought.

As to certain Jewish men wearing yarmulkes: they are not the same as a headscarf. The principle is the same - that one's head must be covered at all times - but they are typically flat on the head, worn on the back of the head, and securely fastened. They do not impede one's eyesight nor interfere with physical functioning. In fact, members of the Israeli army wear their yarmulkes (or kipahs) under their helmets. However, it is considered part of the uniform. KT

 

[white belt]

On the dress code issue, I have a face to face conversation with each of my prospective students explaining dress code. They all understand there are no exceptions. If I allow "culture" or place of origin to dictate appearance, then individual self importance wins over the group and environment. That scenarios results are obvious. If a person disagrees with my requirements of non-favortism, then I try to help them find an appropriate alternative (competing school) with sincerity. The dress code replys are good points and I agree.

On the subject of "my job", part of the description is to make sure my group (who is conforming out of respect to their fellow students) is given a level point of reference when training with a person or persons who is / are little more than a total stranger in mock mortal combat situations. If someones appearance is viewed as a form of condescention in a personal or cultural way, antagonism develops. I have CEOs, etc. sparring with waiters. The plain white uniform sheds outside title and gives those with a maleable pysche a chance at refining their perception of self. Being demonstrative about your religion in said environment dismantles the core of this concept and many times breeds contempt. Contempt compromises safe training and that in turn greatly diminishes the purpose of training to ensure ones personal safety. I would be discriminating to a multi ethnic group of 60-70 as opposed to one person. Not enjoyable but, much more fair and perhaps safer for the "special" one.

I am very appreciative again for the comments. I am beginning to seperate my emotions from my logical instincts better with each reply. I am lucky to have found such a good source of intelligent opinion as this forum.

 

[Mark Weiser]

The Major Problem is we are all becoming a great melting pot in which we all at one time or another either by intent or by accident will offend others by our own actions and way of life.

The Key to ones character is how do you respond and react to new problems. In dealing with this issue there maybe other questions not asked yet.

• Has the student be attending the classes prior to the incident
• Has the student recently had a religious conversion or experience
• Pandora's Box once opened leads to other problems - meaning this once you have allowed yourself to crack open the door. You will have set things in motion that you will have no control over. This means for instance if someone wishes to wear other traditional religious items. You deny them they will in turn point out the fact you have allowed the other person to wear their reiligous item.

Honestly if you want to practice your religion then it should be left to the reiligous instution you belong too. Not in the Dojo It is a place of Business to teach an Art not to practice or condone a paticular religion.

This will open a whole bunch of problems if allowed. In this day and age of the instant lawsuit you and I as Instructors have to always be careful.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser

 

[white belt]

An added note. I have been teaching this woman's two little boys for nearly two years. They had very low self esteem due to their origins and being in a potentially hostile new homeland. I catch them when they fall and explain to them that other people (at public school) who may say they are weak or substandard are lying and that they can do or achieve what any other person can regardless of culture of origin or appearance. I teach them that the best revenge is success and then forgiveness. They are bright and goodhearted. I add this for any who come late to the thread and want to label me. If I am to be labeled, at least read the entire thread thus far.

Thanks.

 

[AnimEdge]

Its good that you have a no exeptions policy in your school, i am unsure about the legal aspect of things but i would guess it woudl be a good idea to come up with some written laws and uniform guidlines if you dont have them.

In my school(Ninjutsu) the guy who was once incharge of the (RBWI) Robert Bussey broke off from the traditional Togakaru Ryu style manly becouse of the religouse aspect of it, so when he came back to the states(from what i know) the only thing he changed when he tought was the religouse aspect, it was switched from western believes to cristianity.

I dont know the spacifics of what he tought sence he is retired but his predeccor school: PPC(Person Protect Concepts) In this school the only religouse anything said or done is in the spacifics of the Academy Tentets, we only say: :love, Joy, Peace,Patitence,Kindess,faithfullness,Gentleness, and self-control

Now we only say those but they have religouse meanings like:
Faithfullness: I am faithfull to fullfill gods will for my life

Now that is obviosly a cristanity thing

Though the tenets are of cristan scource there also general for everything, faithfullness can also mean to stay true to your self and others and ect ect.

That and we do like a few secounds of silence when we bow our heads are the only religouse anthing in our school

We dont bow or anything instead we shake hands when we spar
and so that generaly get rid of any religouse whatever, like you said about the Ying Yang being viewed as "the devil", and not bowing at the flag, sence we dont do antthing like this we have no problems, but clothing might be diffrent

Im a supporter of the whole everyone to them selfs when it comes to religions, i am cristian(i think, though i cant spell it well) and i am far from a religouse person(in fact i cant spell that right eather), i dont care what your religion is and i dont care if you care what mine is so to me when it comes to the scarfs and other clothing that if they want to wear it then they should, now in my HS(whitch i just graduated) they had a no hat policy, but they allowed those head scarfs and no one really cared, so i am gladded that my school is very low on the religions aspects of MA

Now when it comes to those in a MA setting is diffrent, many schools have a strict uniform policy, you come in wearing the school Gi and nothing else, no jewly no watches no nothing, so underthat i view that she and anyone should have to take off there scarfs out of repect of the school becouse that is the schools uniform and if they dont like it they dont have to pay.
Now in my school we dont have a set uniform, you wear whatever it is you can wear to get the job(techs strikes so on) that you dont mind ripped, now a guy in my class once worn one of those jewish hats those little small ones, and no one said nor cared that he wore it, and as for that we had no problem throwing him and making him to stuff(with or without the hat) that made his hat fall off, after awail he took it off tired of putting it back on and has not warn it sence. Now if a girl warn one of those scarfs we would warn her that it might get ripped and torn and might fall off and if she had no problem with that we would go on with class like she didnt wear it, now if her religion required to wear some big spike metal hat, something that could injure someone we wopuld have asked her to remove it.

Anyhow i think (due to it seams you are stricked no excuse policy) that you stick with what you said and if you get sued you probly(dont hold me on it) be safe as long as you never played "favorites" and alowed some one to not bow or wear a hat or anthing then you will probly be fine

 

[CanuckMA]

The difference between the scarf and the 'Jesus Saves' patch is that the Muslim woman MUST wear the scarf. The patch is optional. In the same way that an observant Jewish man would wear a kipa, an observan Sikh wears a turban. The scarf is not a safety issue.

 

[AnimEdge]

If the scarfe is not a safty issue and she doesnt mind having it yanked and pulled on then i woudl think it would be fine to ware...unless it goes agenst the uniform code of the school

 

[MichiganTKD]

The problem is, if you allow a student to wear a Muslim headcovering in class, regardless of the reason, other students will likely use that as an excuse to sport religious or political outerwear of their own. It's an all or nothing proposition. Either every student is allowed to wear head coverings or none do. I've no problem with students having religious or political convictions. But you cannot make exceptions for one student but not another.
Aside from the safety issue (lowered peripheral vision), I would tell her no students are allowed to wear head coverings in class, period. Only exception is authorized class gear or doctor-authorized gear. Otherwise, nothing a uniform can't cover.
One of the reasons we wear white uniforms in class is to eliminate distinctions between students. If one student is allowed to dress differently, regardless of reason, all that goes out the window.

 

[AnimEdge]

I agree with you but in mine no one really cares what you wear as long as they can do everything in it, i could wear a big hat in mine and no one would care but if it goes agesnt the rules of the dojo then there should be no exeptions

 

[bignick]

i do agree with the previous posts that there is a difference between the jesus saves patch and the headscarf...but i still stick to my guns that if that is your policy in your school than you need to uphold it. this reminds of the woman in florida who tried to get her driver's liscense photo with the whole burka on because she had recently converted to Islam...all you could see was here eyes...now i respect her beliefs and i feel she should be allowed to wear it in her daily life...but where's the common sense?

it doesn't have a whole lot to do with the current debate...but it just popped into my head reading these posts

 

[AnimEdge]

Common sense? what a oximoron(sp)

 

[white belt]

Thanks for the observations. There are Christians who in their faith MUST advertise and help others onboard. The lady who did not allow her daughter to bow to the flags MUST not allow her to. I am not against them adhering to their beliefs. They are informed before joining the school as to the guidelines. I have certain beliefs as well. Mine are private so as not to infringe on those members who do join.

I have known this lady for nearly two years. I like her and her family. Her sons being students of mine will not allow me to give her favor over others already a part of the school. I understand the importance to her in what she wears. I am not pursuing her to be a student, her husband approached me. I would not ask anyone to forsake their religion to be a member of my school. Just wanted to make that point clear.

Again thanks.

 

[AnimEdge]

good point

 

[Marginal]

Thanks for the observations. There are Christians who in their faith MUST advertise and help others onboard. The lady who did not allow her daughter to bow to the flags MUST not allow her to. I am not against them adhering to their beliefs. They are informed before joining the school as to the guidelines. I have certain beliefs as well. Mine are private so as not to infringe on those members who do join.

Still, one wonders if she ever thinks at all about requesting the same regarding the pledge of allegance.

I have known this lady for nearly two years. I like her and her family. Her sons being students of mine will not allow me to give her favor over others already a part of the school. I understand the importance to her in what she wears.

I was wondering if there could be a compromise reached by simply having her wear headgear during training. It's more about the head being covered than anything else isn't it?

 

[white belt]

Headgear for the entire duration of the class. That is an interesting point. Does she have to wear the scarf only? I don't know. We don't wear headgear for most of our classes. Would that be a stumbling block I wonder. I drain my students sweat w/o their heads being covered. Would she be able to handle it and would she want to. I am wincing at the comfort issue but, maybe to her it would not be an issue. Anybody reading this thread please jump in and express your opinions and understanding of the religious signifigance of the scarf / headgear point made by Marginal. Thank you for your insight.

Also, is physical contact with adult male students, while training, forbidden under Muslim scrutiny? I haven't had the opportunity to ask that one.

Thanks.

 

[Rob Broad]

I would schedule a sit down with her and her husband, and see what exactly they are looking for ,and what is permitable and what is not. If you think you can get by with what the want and can allow then talk to your students to see if there any objections. From there you can plot a course, whether it be her in class, her doing private lessons with you, her not inclass, or teh family completely leaving. The family completely leaving is teh worst case scenario, and hopefully that won't happen.

Headgear for the entire duration of the class. That is an interesting point. Does she have to wear the scarf only? I don't know. We don't wear headgear for most of our classes. Would that be a stumbling block I wonder. I drain my students sweat w/o their heads being covered. Would she be able to handle it and would she want to. I am wincing at the comfort issue but, maybe to her it would not be an issue. Anybody reading this thread please jump in and express your opinions and understanding of the religious signifigance of the scarf / headgear point made by Marginal. Thank you for your insight.

Also, is physical contact with adult male students, while training, forbidden under Muslim scrutiny? I haven't had the opportunity to ask that one.

Thanks.