Dojang Discipline Problem and Safety Concerns

[outsider0506]

My daughter (9 years old) has been at her dojang for over a year after transferring from another dojang that closed. She has been a consistent sparring team member and a state champion in her division in both poomse and sparring. She has really liked being at the new club, with the exception of an 8 year old boy that is consistently out of control.

Whenever this boy gets paired up with a girl, he goes completely ballistic; throwing kicks full force with the intent of causing physical injury. Since his overall skill level is pretty low, he usually ends up kicking the girls in the legs and making them hurt, but not causing any real injury. Over the last 4 weeks he has started adding punching ONLY while fighting the girls.

Last night, he went over the top and punched my daughter above the hogu and in the throat, knocking her to the floor gasping for breath and leaving a nasty bruise on the bones just below the trachea. An inch higher and my daughter would have gone to the hospital. I saw the shot and he did not pull it at all. Today she is still having pain swallowing.

I completely understand that this is a contact sport and have no problems with an occasional low kick, a hard head shot here or there, a body shot that went a little too hard for training, but this kid seems not to have any respect or regard for the safety of his training partners or he just hates girls. The rest of the kids in the class have a pretty healthy attitude for the training process and good control, except for this kid.

I spoke to the head instructor (who was not present at the time) to voice my concerns. I told him that I don't want to see that boy paired up with my daughter again. This morning, I'm thinking if I don't see some improvement I'll have to withdraw my daughter from this dojang and seek training somewhere else even though I know the training would be inferior. I do take my daughter's safety seriously.

Am I overreacting to the situation?

 

[Gnarlie]

Nope. The instructor has a responsibility to deal with this if you let them know, and that kid needs talking to, even from an instructor's perspective.

Gnarlie

 

[Instructor]

You did the right thing. The instructor should straiten the kid out and if that proves impossible he should be asked to leave.

 

[jks9199]

The only thing I might add is to ensure that the instructor teaching was aware and took some form of action. It's not clear from your post what they did or if they knew.

Honestly, given the history you posted, I would question the assistant or junior instructor's competence in general. They may need some better supervision themselves.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[outsider0506]

I agree. It is rare when the head instructor is not present for the competition sparring class and I believe he would taken a stronger stance on the incident if he had witnessed it himself. I think the junior instructors didn't want to get into it beyond making sure that my daughter could still breathe. The level of supervision that day was minimal at best (which was unusual).

About 2-3 months ago the head instructor warned the class about trying to kill each other in class, instead of training. I don't think this kid got the message and I don't think the training with your partner vs. killing your partner message is reinforced by the boy's parents either.

It is really a sad situation. The training at this place is otherwise excellent and my daughter has progressed by leaps and bounds in the last year. She is strong, confident and technical when sparring. If I switched her out now, I think it will hurt her chances of doing well at the US Open next year. But, there's no question in my mind that her safety comes first.

If she gets paired up with him again or if I see anything remotely close to this incident happen again, I will not hesitate to yank her out of the dojang on the spot.

 

[miguksaram]

I agree you did the right thing about informing the instructor of the incident. I would also recommend that if your daughter can take him then it is time that she gives him a taste of his own medicine. Not saying to punch him in the throat but perhaps a couple hard kicks to humble him. It sounds like the kid has bully tendency towards girls, from you describe. He needs to shown the hard way that girls are not someone to bully just because they are a girl.

 

[Master Dan]

First it is the complete responsibility of the head instructor to totally controll all activity from the time the kids enter to the time they leave and if he is not there or running it at the time maybe office what ever the person or instructor in charge also has complete control period no excuses. If there is a problem with a student it has to be dealt with and thier behavior controlled or changed or they have to be elimnated from the class. Sparring is not fighting but training with in the famly of TKD and we do not hurt our famly! it is the duty of the stronger to lift up and help weaker ones get stronger while possibly doing technque we cannot do or practice on a equal or better opponnet but pulling the technique letting them know they need to keep thier gaurd up but also letting them feel what it is like to get in and have successfull contact with out being constantly banged or bruized increasing confidence and skill.

It would be tempting if that happened to have your daughter told and taught to take his legs or groin out as a lesson to not do it again but liability issues and also if he has been abused causing him to act this way will not help him and only increase his acting out on others so he needs help in a positive way but not at the expense of your daughters safety and others.

This was a serious assault in a non sportsmanlike manner and a short letter on your attorneys letterhead asking for the name of his liabilty insurance carrier will give this DoJang owner pause to never allow this kind of behavior again.

 

[eliteguardian]

In my opinion there should be no junior instructor teaching a sparring course especially with children, in my Dojang you have to a fifth degree or above to be able to teach a sparring class as our head instructor doesn't allow anyone but those who he knows and trusts completely. I would be surprised if the child was not yanked off the mats then and there and made to sit down with perhaps a good telling off afterwards. However I do not think you overreacted at all, quite frankly the child should have been watched closer by the instructor to avoid incidents like this. I wish your daughter good luck in future endeavors and a speedy recovery!

 

[Omar B]

I don't wanna sound alarmist but that type of sparring class the head instructor should be there. Him not being there shows a disregard for safety and he pretty much leaves it open to the other instructors to choose what they want. You think at a Seido or Kyokushin school the Sensei would not be right there on the floor for sparring or free fight?

Also the kid is a problem, I don't know how much at home discipline he has but Sensei needs to get him on that push up regimen of discipline.

Oh for the days of 80's-early 90's karate when sensei still carried a cane in class and used it with our parents glad consent when we got out of line.

 

[ATC]

OK I will go in a different direction with this. Yes the person running the class needs to be aware of saftey and watch over the kids and handle the situations better. I personally would not have a Jr. instructor allow anyone to spar if the head or any of the actual instructors were not there. They would only work drills and such. However with all that said I think you are overreacting a bit. What I can infer from you post is that this boy is this way with all girls and even when the head instructor is around. To me your overreaction is not that you are concerned with your daughter and her safety, but rather the way you want to handle things. Yes you should talk to the head instructor (respectfully I should add), and yes your are in the right to make sure that the boy is under control. But you state that your daughter is better skillfully and technically so then why does she not show it. Instead of fighting your kids battles and teaching your kid to run from the situation (leaving the school over this simple matter), You should after doing all that you have already done and things still did not change, is to tell your kid that if he keeps it up to pop him good somewhere (be it the head or the kid jewels). You should be teaching your kid to resolve the issues as you are trying to, but when that fails they need to find a respectful way to nip it in the bud. Yes you need to exhaust all normal and proper channels first.

What I see is a kid that does what he does not because they are girls but because he does not respect them. I can almost bet dimes to dollars he would do the same with even other boys that he thinks he can dominate. This makes him a bully. Not that he wants to be a bully but in his mind he believes that this is normal. When he goes against others that are better than him and hit him a bit hard, he perceives what he is doing to others as the same. He cannot rationalize or understand any different. He just knows that he got hit and is afraid of the ones that he cannot dominate. Young kids don't get many concepts. All he knows is that he feels that there is someone he can beat or should beat just as he feels that he cannot beat or could beat the ones that dominate him.

To up and leave, teaches no one anything. Not your daughter, not the kid, and not even the instructor. You are teaching your daughter to be a victim. You are teaching her not to resolve the situation but to run when she finds herself in a tough spot. I am not saying tell her to straight up fight the kid, but she should let him know that she will not stand for his actions, without him even knowing that he is being told that.

My son is pretty good at TKD and takes it easy on just about everyone he spars with. Every now and then he will get a kid that gets a little too much confidence from his niceness and they try an hurt him or feel that they can go harder than normal to show that they can maybe beat him. He has no problem putting them back in place after that.

Also I can tell you that the worst people to spar or fight are the beginners. They kick low and are wild. They also tend to be a bit wilder vs. people they perceive to be inferior. They don't have better skills than anyone but they think they do. They block with elbows and knees, and better skilled people tend to get hurt because they are trying to control themselves. Again when this happens you as the partner can tell them to calm down, but some just have to be shown.

Don't run, but help show this kid that he needs to calm down. This kid will eventually learn. He is what we simply call hardheaded, and they always need to touch the fire to understand that it is hot.

This is just my .02, you have to do what you think is best for you in the end.

 

[outsider0506]

Trust me, my daughter beats him on points EVERY time, but not without taking a nasty bruising to the thighs every time. Mind you, this kid is supposed to be black belt level. Earlier in the year I had told my daughter to kick him harder (but still in legal scoring zones) to make him stop and respect the training relationship. I think this only made the dynamic worse.

Should I be telling my daughter to bash the kid in the face with her fist to make things better? Last night I almost told her to purposely kick him in the groin, in the thighs and against the knees, but I stopped myself, being reminded that by going against these rules of sportsmanship I'm teaching my daughter an even worse life lesson.

This discipline problem has been going on for a long time and has been unaddressed.

Just as a note, this kid actually takes it easy on ANY boy he fights.

It's very sad watching him kick girls in the thighs to make them hurt and then try to score points on their hogus. I think he has a particular thing out for my daughter because she doesn't let him push her around and always ends up getting the best of him.

 

[Omar B]

If he takes it easy on the boys then he's a weak little bully who cannot measure up to the boys. Or something else deeper is going on here, I don't know him so I cannot tell. Psycho in training, nip it in the bud!

When I was a kid we had a bully in our class. He was a big fat boy, bigger than all of us even though he was younger and lower belt level. Just one of those thyroid cases who had pubes at like 8. After a long time of us guys trying to be nice and even offering to be friends he just wouldn't respond to kindness. So he got bashed around one Friday in class by somebody's little sister, came back the Monday one more time and never returned.

 

[ATC]

...Should I be telling my daughter to bash the kid in the face with her fist to make things better?

Yes. Just enough that he gets the message. But the groin is a better target is he does not stop. And each time a little harder than the next. Then she can whisper in his ear, "stop kicking me in the legs and I'll stop kicking you between yours". then have her smile at him.

Just as a note, this kid actually takes it easy on ANY boy he fights.

It's very sad watching him kick girls in the thighs to make them hurt and then try to score points on their hogus. I think he has a particular thing out for my daughter because she doesn't let him push her around and always ends up getting the best of him.

Because he respect them. He also may be a bit intimidated by your daughter as well. That is OK, but still no excuse for his actions.

If the head instructor or any instructor is not going to fix the problem the she must fix it by helping them see that there is a problem.

 

[eliteguardian]

If the master does nothing then I would have my daughter refuse to fight him any more, no need to stoop to his level. Call the parents maybe? If the master can not handle the problem that is.

 

[Tez3]

Trust me, my daughter beats him on points EVERY time, but not without taking a nasty bruising to the thighs every time. Mind you, this kid is supposed to be black belt level. Earlier in the year I had told my daughter to kick him harder (but still in legal scoring zones) to make him stop and respect the training relationship. I think this only made the dynamic worse.

Should I be telling my daughter to bash the kid in the face with her fist to make things better? Last night I almost told her to purposely kick him in the groin, in the thighs and against the knees, but I stopped myself, being reminded that by going against these rules of sportsmanship I'm teaching my daughter an even worse life lesson.

This discipline problem has been going on for a long time and has been unaddressed.

Just as a note, this kid actually takes it easy on ANY boy he fights.

It's very sad watching him kick girls in the thighs to make them hurt and then try to score points on their hogus. I think he has a particular thing out for my daughter because she doesn't let him push her around and always ends up getting the best of him.

If there's a long term discipline problem then the school isn't as good as you think it is.
If your daughter is the one getting bruised and he's not she isn't getting the better of him. To my mind when defending yourself against an attacker and that's what he is, there are no rules of sportsmanship. I'd take ATC's very good advice and tell her to hurt him, I have done that and would/will again.

 

[ATC]

If there's a long term discipline problem then the school isn't as good as you think it is.
If your daughter is the one getting bruised and he's not she isn't getting the better of him. To my mind when defending yourself against an attacker and that's what he is, there are no rules of sportsmanship...

True and Truer.

 

[jks9199]

Responding in kind (kicking him in the groin, punching him in the face, etc.) should be somewhere towards the end of responses, when other steps have failed. I do agree that leaving shouldn't be an early choice, either -- but should stay on the table in case nothing else works.

I'm not jumping to conclusions about the school or how it's based on one side of the story... but there are definite concerns. Discuss it with the head instructor.

 

[shesulsa]

I ride a fence between letting adults in charge handle the matter and letting HER handle the matter. The cold hard fact is that this kid doesn't respect females. Your daughter should not have to take that crap from anyone. Even if all she does is approach him before they spar and say, "I'd appreciate it if you would show me the same respect you do the boys when we spar - but if you don't, I will fight you just as hard as you fight me." Then let her go.

Look, I've had grown men try to rock n roll with me while I was *pregnant* - they just had no respect for women - they were never taught, I guess. The last guy who did this ... well, I charged him and my buddy got between us. My teacher had the guy spar my buddy - 6'4" and 300 lbs. Dude never came back.

Whatever happens, you still need to make the head instructor accountable. Whomever is in charge during the sparring class clearly hasn't the training to handle this kind of disciplinary problem - and they need it before being unleashed on the class without direct supervision. THAT is a head-of-school problem.

 

[jks9199]

The biggest problem I see with letting the girl handle it herself is her age; she's 9, he's about the same. Add to that the structured environment of training, and I'm not quite willing to suggest that the problem be dealt with by themselves. They're both "black belts" -- but that's a skill acknowledgement in this case, not maturity. (Not trying to raise the whole child black belt thing; it's really a distraction here.) If there is a good, skilled female adult instructor, there might be a chance to kind of put the boy in his place, but I really suspect that those issues go a lot deeper than will be easily addressed in class. As in -- look to the home front; that's probably where he's learning it.

For the moment, blame goes to the instructional staff, ending at the head instructor. This is a mess that was allowed to develop, and will lead to the boy hurting a girl -- or getting hurt himself when someone stops putting up with it -- if it's not dealt with.

 

[outsider0506]

I remember a story a good friend and very famous TKD instructor told me about his competition team and having problems between a couple of the students. He regretted not kicking both of them to the curb immediately, no matter who started it or how skilled or important the players were.

My daughter is already in the mindset that she will hurt this kid real bad if she gets in the ring with him again. If the head instructor does not address this issue, she will hurt this kid in ways that aren't legal in KKW TKD and then I am more than certain she'll get kicked to the curb after it is over. So I guess it doesn't matter what we/she does and it all falls on the head instructor to work this mess out.

For everyone's reference, my daughter does KKW/WTF TKD sparring. No SD focus whatsoever. Sparring is supposed to be controlled, technical and collaborative in training; but harder, and more brutal in competition. The head instructor said it before; your classmates are your family and you don't try to intentionally hurt your family. This kid just didn't get the message.