Does ANY style have an effective empty hand Vs knife techniques?

Makalakumu

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I've sample a bunch of different styles in my MA career and I've focused on a few. From what I have seen, most styles seem not have a very well thought out approach to the empty hand vs blade scenario. FMA does a good job. Basically, I was told to pull out my own knife...and deal with it. Therefore, one must ask, is there any effective styles that teach empty hand vs knife scenarios/techniques? If so who? What? Where? When?
 

bluemtn

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I don't know- it seems to be "relative". I've seen different MA styles that have defense against a knife, and I've heard it's best to keep away from that knife as best as you can. Have you checked out a combatives art? That was just my opinions, and I don't have much experience in MA. I've seen two styles, and neither had much (but some) differences in defense against a knife.
 

SAVAGE

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Well...aikido..hapkido....I lern with the military so its gun and knife disarms are quite good!

*bows respectfully*
 

arnisador

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A dedicated knifer is a tough opponent. On the other hand, George Harrison survived a knife attack by disarming his opponent.

To my mind, the FMA and Indonesian approaches are best. Aikido can be good...if you get a wide swing and a good grip. But no approach is of much use against someone willing to trade a stab for a punch.
 

SAVAGE

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arnisador said:
A dedicated knifer is a tough opponent. On the other hand, George Harrison survived a knife attack by disarming his opponent.

To my mind, the FMA and Indonesian approaches are best. Aikido can be good...if you get a wide swing and a good grip. But no approach is of much use against someone willing to trade a stab for a punch.

I think that you dont give aikido and hapkido enough credit.....true that a person that wants to stick you is a tough opponent..but beatable using traditional MA methods!
 

Jonathan Randall

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First of all, I think you have to understand that there is a huge gap between armed and unarmed. Unarmed will always be at a disadvantage to armed, no question about it. Steel is harder than flesh. Against an ambush attack from a blade, IMO, totally successful defense is unlikely. However, IMO, the FMA's have some excellent counters, particularly to the unskilled attacker.

From what I've seen of your personal skills via video clips, I think you would take the head off of any unskilled knife attacker provided you had an instant to respond.

I personally have faced a knife. I gave them what they wanted. Perhaps I could have taken them, perhaps not. The risk wasn't worth it. Fight if you have to; if you don't, don't.
 

SAVAGE

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J RANDALL SAID:

First of all, I think you have to understand that there is a huge gap between armed and unarmed. Unarmed will always be at a disadvantage to armed, no question about it. Steel is harder than flesh. Against an ambush attack from a blade, IMO, totally successful defense is unlikely. However, IMO, the FMA's have some excellent counters, particularly to the unskilled attacker.

I agree completely...unarmed will almost always get the worst of the injuries..but traditional martial arts was created in the days when knives were the primary weapon..and swords so they could be considered effective!

J RANDALL SAID:

From what I've seen of your personal skills via video clips, I think you would take the head off of any unskilled knife attacker provided you had an instant to respond.

Which clips?

J RANDALL SAID:

I personally have faced a knife. I gave them what they wanted. Perhaps I could have taken them, perhaps not. The risk wasn't worth it. Fight if you have to; if you don't, don't.

I would have done the same..a good martial artist chooses his battles!

*bows respectfully*
 
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Makalakumu

Makalakumu

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My teacher also teaches arnis de mano, so all of the knife defenses that were part of TSD were dropped in favor of the FMA defenses. The old knife defenses were very much like the jujutsu knife defenses in the other system I train in. In order to pull them off, the attacker needed to move pretty unnaturally.

I often wonder what happened. If defense against a knife was common back when these defenses were being formulated, why don't they seem more effective? Maybe I'm not giving them enough credit, but I would love to see an empty hand vs knife sparring situation where the tori can pull it off before the uke kills him.

Does anyone know where the knife defenses in their arts actually originated? I've heard stories that the grandmaster's son created the old TSD knife defenses on the fly...

upnorthkyosa

ps - thanks Jonathan, for the compliment. I'll have to get some vids done of me doing the defenses that we do now. I still get cut sometimes, but I don't know if that is avoidable.
 

BlackCatBonz

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watch vladimir vasiliev doing knife defenses.....absolutely fluid....so i would say systema as 1 system.
We tend to do a lot of knife stuff in Kosho.....but its more of an aiki skill.
any FMA as well.
 

MJS

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upnorthkyosa said:
I've sample a bunch of different styles in my MA career and I've focused on a few. From what I have seen, most styles seem not have a very well thought out approach to the empty hand vs blade scenario. FMA does a good job. Basically, I was told to pull out my own knife...and deal with it. Therefore, one must ask, is there any effective styles that teach empty hand vs knife scenarios/techniques? If so who? What? Where? When?

Any art has the potential to be effective. However, depending on the approach that you use, some can be much better than others. I've been doing the FMA's for a while, so I'm a little biased towards them. IMHO, an art that is more weapon based, is going to stand a much better chance.

Getting away is of course the best option. Picking up something to aid in your defense, ie: something that you can throw at the attacker, use to strike him, etc., are all possibilities. Gaining control of the weapon arm, securing it, and then working for a disarm is another way to go.

Mike
 

Sin

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All styles have some weapons defence systems...Just check with your local schools and let them know what you are intrested in and they can tell you m what they offer.
 

barriecusvein

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BlackCatBonz said:
watch vladimir vasiliev doing knife defenses.....absolutely fluid....so i would say systema as 1 system.
Having done about 4 months systema training (no time at all i know, but i think enough to get a grasp of some of the basic concepts) i was always very dubious about the knife work. not that the moves wouldnt work, but the margin for error is so tiny, way less than other systems techniques against knives. it would take either someone extremely skilled or totally crazy to use them IMO.

Like i said though, i only trained for about 4 months, so maybe i just didnt get as good a grasp of the concepts as i thought i did.
 

Brother John

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MUST look to the FMA!!
In my opinion, and to my experience the Grand Majority of anti-knife techs that are in many other arts that teach them...would get you severely maimed at best; killed at worst!

The FMA seem to take a much more realistic stance on things.
The Israeli systems seem to have some pragmatics stuff too, but my exposure to them is very limited.

Your Brother
John
 

Nanalo74

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According to my instructor, Barry Cuda, Paul Vunak used to have his students practice with colored magic markers in place of knives. Afterwards, you would look at your limbs and body to see how many times you'd gotten "cut". The point being that anytime a knife is involved, expect to get cut.

Going empty hand vs. a knife should be the absolute LAST resort, meaning your life depends on it. If you can escape, then escape. But if you have to defend yourself then you should have the proper training under your belt.

What frustrates me about the way knife defenses are taught in some systems is that the student is never taught how to use a knife. If you don't know what a knife can do and every angle that it can come at you, you can't be expected to effectively defend against it.

The classic overhead stab or reverse-punch-style thrust is not realistic because the chances of someone coming at you like that is slim at best. The knife, like the fighter, is an alive thing. Unless you train with an alive mindset, you will be stuck in your fixed patterns, unfit for real world combat.

Naturally, the chances of you facing off against a fighter trained in FMA or some other knife fighting system are also slim. But if someone plans to stab you, they're not going to make it easy for you to defend. And they're certainly not going to telegraph their movements by first getting into a karate stance before they thrust at your gut.

Vic
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arnisador

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SAVAGE said:
I think that you dont give aikido and hapkido enough credit.....true that a person that wants to stick you is a tough opponent..but beatable using traditional MA methods!

Agreed! I do think that the techniques of Aikido, Hapkido, Jujutsu, etc., are very appropriate to a knife-defense situation. In my opinion, those types of techniques are a better bet than most striking styles' techniques. But...I also think that many of those techniques assume an ability to get and maintain a grip on a person. A key idea of good knife fighting is countering those grips with your empty hand to effect an escape for your knife. I also feel that Aikido especially works best against a committed attack, and a good knifer often starts with an uncommitted attack. I know Aikido can work in this case too, but it can't help the Aikidoka's odds!
 

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As a sideline I think that this is very important can anyone hazard a guess at the chances of survival against someone with a knife if you also have a knife.

Amrik
 

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I suspect that many arts have techniques that have a nugget of a good idea in them, but this may be buried under a lot of junk. Take that idea and really explore it. Figure out what might actually have a chance of working, and what is really nonsense. Be realistic. Practice a lot, be creative, and use a very critical and sceptical eye. Figure out how to gain control of the weapon hand and how to deliver some effective counter strikes without giving up that control. Have your partner wiggle the weapon around in every possible direction while you are applying your techniques, to see where the weaknesses lie. Don't let your partner be cooperative when you practice. There is no room for that in these techniques. I like the idea of using colored magic markers to simulate cuts.

Understand that defending against a knife is very very risky at best, and the unarmed defender is at a very dangerous disadvantage.

If push came to shove and you had no other option but to defend against an attacker armed with a knife, then you have to work with what you have. You may find some things successful, but you will probably also get cut. Just try not to get fatally cut. Under those circumstances, that might be the best you can hope for.
 

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Another thought came to mind. A little knowledge of human anatomy would go a long way. Knowing what cuts could be quickly fatal, and what cuts could leave lasting damage even if not fatal, is important. Major arteries and veins can be fatal within seconds. This means the sides of the neck, under the armpits and the insides of the upper arms, and the insides of the thighs. Severed tendons can leave permanent, crippling damage. This includes the palms of the hands and the insides of the wrists, and the Achilles' tendon in the back of the leg above the heel of the foot.

Understanding this could give you a slight edge in evaluating the potential damage that you might suffer. In the mixup, you might have to sacrifice a body part in order to gain a successful advantage. Know which body parts are less easily damaged, or less dangerous if damaged. A cut across the back of the forearm would be easier to take then a cut across the wrist or palm of the hand, or inside of the upper arm/armpit, for example.
 

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Nanalo74 said:
What frustrates me about the way knife defenses are taught in some systems is that the student is never taught how to use a knife. If you don't know what a knife can do and every angle that it can come at you, you can't be expected to effectively defend against it.

Exactly! I've always been a believer that having an understanding of the weapon, will allow a better chance of a defense.

The classic overhead stab or reverse-punch-style thrust is not realistic because the chances of someone coming at you like that is slim at best. The knife, like the fighter, is an alive thing. Unless you train with an alive mindset, you will be stuck in your fixed patterns, unfit for real world combat.

We often seen those classic attacks and techniques off of them being taught, but what is lacking, are the other possibilities that can happen. We can pull off pretty much any disarm when the person is standing there, but add in some movement and its a whole new game.



Naturally, the chances of you facing off against a fighter trained in FMA or some other knife fighting system are also slim. But if someone plans to stab you, they're not going to make it easy for you to defend. And they're certainly not going to telegraph their movements by first getting into a karate stance before they thrust at your gut.

True. While we may never face that highly skilled attacker, I'd rather train to face that attacker, as it will only make my defense that much better.

Mike
 
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