Does ANY style have an effective empty hand Vs knife techniques?

[Henderson]

The point being that anytime a knife is involved, expect to get cut.

I fully agree with Vic. It's a knife...you're gonna get cut.

The classic overhead stab or reverse-punch-style thrust is not realistic because the chances of someone coming at you like that is slim at best.

I agree once again. The only people who use the overhead "shower scene from Psycho" stab are disgruntled housewives.

IMO, if dealing with an assailant armed with a blade is the ONLY option, meaning avoidance or escape are not possible, then it must be handled with extreme prejudice. Disarming is not high on my priority list. Control the weapon hand. Pummel them til they are no longer a threat. Keep up your awareness. Be aware of secondary attackers. Escape at first opportunity. Survive.


Respects,

Frank

 

[Knarfan]

I think that you dont give aikido and hapkido enough credit.....true that a person that wants to stick you is a tough opponent..but beatable using traditional MA methods!

If your looking for effective empty hand techniqes against a blade attack IMO aikido & hapkido might not be your best options against a highly skilled person. Although they do have alot of effective techniqes. IMO, Filipino arts are the most effective.

 

[arnisador]

As a sideline I think that this is very important can anyone hazard a guess at the chances of survival against someone with a knife if you also have a knife.

Too many variables. But, it happens often enough that one should not give up!

 

[Knarfan]

As a sideline I think that this is very important can anyone hazard a guess at the chances of survival against someone with a knife if you also have a knife.

Amrik

One thing that really would increase the victims chances for survival would be how quickly they deploy thier weapon after being attacked. If it takes anymore then a couple of seconds you might already be cut. Either way getting your weapon out after the attack has begun is pretty difficult. It's an important thing to practice.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

1.Going empty hand vs. a knife should be the absolute LAST resort, meaning your life depends on it. If you can escape, then escape. But if you have to defend yourself then you should have the proper training under your belt.

2.What frustrates me about the way knife defenses are taught in some systems is that the student is never taught how to use a knife. If you don't know what a knife can do and every angle that it can come at you, you can't be expected to effectively defend against it.

3.The classic overhead stab or reverse-punch-style thrust is not realistic because the chances of someone coming at you like that is slim at best. The knife, like the fighter, is an alive thing. Unless you train with an alive mindset, you will be stuck in your fixed patterns, unfit for real world combat.

4.Naturally, the chances of you facing off against a fighter trained in FMA or some other knife fighting system are also slim.

5.But if someone plans to stab you, they're not going to make it easy for you to defend. And they're certainly not going to telegraph their movements by first getting into a karate stance before they thrust at your gut.

Vic
www.combatartsusa.com

1. i completely agree with this

2. the trouble with the training aspect though is this: most teachers outside of FMA probably dont touch a knife unless they are spreading something on bread or cutting a piece of meat. Im not saying this is the case all of the time......but it's rare to find a teacher with good knife skills.

3. i disagree with this statement. My brother-in-law was attacked by a knife weilding drug addict. a case of mistaken identity and a few lines of cocaine made this guy crazy.........the guy tried to stab down into his chest repeatedly with a carving knife, my bro in law's first instinct was to grab the weapon and stop it......he got cut, but not badly. he ended up beating the crap out of this guy and was sued for assault, my brother in law beat it though (whats up with people?). during my time as a bouncer, i had 2 situations that involved a sharp object, one was a screwdriver and the other was a broken bottle. the screwdriver was an attempted thrust and the bottle was an overhand. neither was successful, and were typical attempts by someone that is untrained with a weapon.
the reason that thrusts and overhead attacks are trained for is simply because joe bloe is going to get you that way.

4. if you face off against a trained knife fighter........all i can say is good luck, you probably wont even know they have a knife until it is ripping through your flesh.

5. i agree with this if it is someone that is familiar with handling a blade. if the person isnt familiar, they definitely telegraph their movements and go into the classic "get ready, i am going to stab you now" stance.
this has been both my personal experiences, those which i have observed, and those whose stories have been retold to me.

knife fighting or defense is just one of those things. loads of people train for empty hand without any problem......throw a knife in and all of the sudden its impossible to defend against.......not so.
i think half of the battle for knife defense is the psychological battle......which is the case for any battle, really. you need to get over the fear of being mortally wounded in order to do your thing.
you need to train with edged weapons that present a danger, so that bad habits arent developed or they can be turned around if started.
sound crazy?
yes it does......but you cant practice defense against something unless you practice defending against it.
ive seen plenty of people showboat defense against a wooden tanto.......but if you even step it up to a butterknife, the whole attitude changes, because the probability of injury has increased. so you need to work with the butterknife until you're comfortable, and then step it up again, and so on.

 

[Nanalo74]

3. i disagree with this statement. My brother-in-law was attacked by a knife weilding drug addict. a case of mistaken identity and a few lines of cocaine made this guy crazy.........the guy tried to stab down into his chest repeatedly with a carving knife, my bro in law's first instinct was to grab the weapon and stop it......he got cut, but not badly. he ended up beating the crap out of this guy and was sued for assault, my brother in law beat it though (whats up with people?). during my time as a bouncer, i had 2 situations that involved a sharp object, one was a screwdriver and the other was a broken bottle. the screwdriver was an attempted thrust and the bottle was an overhand. neither was successful, and were typical attempts by someone that is untrained with a weapon.
the reason that thrusts and overhead attacks are trained for is simply because joe bloe is going to get you that way.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. It certainly does, and I have seen it as well. My contention is that if that is the only attack you train for, you are in trouble.

knife fighting or defense is just one of those things. loads of people train for empty hand without any problem......throw a knife in and all of the sudden its impossible to defend against.......not so.
i think half of the battle for knife defense is the psychological battle......which is the case for any battle, really. you need to get over the fear of being mortally wounded in order to do your thing.
you need to train with edged weapons that present a danger, so that bad habits arent developed or they can be turned around if started.
sound crazy?
yes it does......but you cant practice defense against something unless you practice defending against it.
ive seen plenty of people showboat defense against a wooden tanto.......but if you even step it up to a butterknife, the whole attitude changes, because the probability of injury has increased. so you need to work with the butterknife until you're comfortable, and then step it up again, and so on.

Agreed. Even in my own training I found that the biggest obstacle I had to overcome was the psychological aspect. Whenever we changed weapons from say, stick to knife, or knife to sword, etc. I would freeze up because the fact that I had something different in my hand caused this whole psychological reaction. Once I got over that, I was able to learn and function.

Vic
www.combatartsusa.com

 

[BlackCatBonz]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. It certainly does, and I have seen it as well. My contention is that if that is the only attack you train for, you are in trouble.



Agreed. Even in my own training I found that the biggest obstacle I had to overcome was the psychological aspect. Whenever we changed weapons from say, stick to knife, or knife to sword, etc. I would freeze up because the fact that I had something different in my hand caused this whole psychological reaction. Once I got over that, I was able to learn and function.

Vic
www.combatartsusa.com

i agree :asian:

 

[shesulsa]

It's too bad there isn't much footage of real knife attacks. I'd have to say most people who pick up a knife to use it have little training - most people (at least here where I live) carry a knife as a tool, not as a weapon per se. There aren't too many really skilled knife fighters who are going to randomly attack you without reason - though it is certainly possible and one should train for as many possibilities as ... well ... possible.

I'd also have to say if I felt I was unarmed against a skilled knife fighter I'd turn to my backup Run-Kwik-Do as well.

 

[Makalakumu]

I'd also have to say if I felt I was unarmed against a skilled knife fighter I'd turn to my backup Run-Kwik-Do as well.

At my 2nd dan test, we had to defend against knifers of various skill levels. The attackers were told to spar with me and attempt to stab and slice realistically. Most of my defenses were evasive in nature and I focused on disabling my attackers mobility, even momentarily, so I could get away. If I ended up grappling for the knife, I usually took more then a few cuts and sometimes would have ended up dead...if it hadn't been a trainer.

I found that pikiti tersia knife tapping skills were very important for keeping the blade off my vitals long enough for me to counter to the eyes, throat groin, knees or feet. We pull strikes that would seriously injure our opponents, but the uke, if they are good, should be able to show what a reaction would be to the attack. All in all, it was a good learning experience.

What do you think would be a realistic approach to empty hand knife defense? Running away has been mentioned many times, but even that needs to be properly set up sometimes. Escape requires an opening.

 

[shesulsa]

What do you think would be a realistic approach to empty hand knife defense? Running away has been mentioned many times, but even that needs to be properly set up sometimes. Escape requires an opening.

This is where you've got to know how to look for an opening, I think. AND you will get cut. If it's at all possible to get some kind of viable object between you and the attacker (if they're skilled) I think you should. Observe the grip, of course, and how long the knife is, if you can. Those will all be key in defense against the knife and will tell you a little about the attacker's skill level. I'd be more afraid of a skilled fighter with a 3" knife than an unskilled fighter with a 6" knife. The opponent's posture will tell you a lot about his/her intentions and skill level (hopefully - though can be deceptive).

So much of this depends upon their posture, grip and approach, it's hard to be specific without being painfully lengthy. You've got to find a way to disable or control the weapon hand, either with an existing or makeshift weapon in defense, or watch the swing, evade and shoot in and control the weapon hand (pancake the hand) - watch for switching hands, too, that's always fun. Disarm the attacker and terminate the attack. WATCH FOR HIS FRIEND(s)!

 

[Kenpodoc]

The classic overhead stab or reverse-punch-style thrust is not realistic because the chances of someone coming at you like that is slim at best. The knife, like the fighter, is an alive thing. Unless you train with an alive mindset, you will be stuck in your fixed patterns, unfit for real world combat.


Vic
www.combatartsusa.com

In my experience here in rural Ohio stabbing deaths are split about 50:50 forward vs reverse grip. I don't know what the national statistics are but "the classic overhead stab' is classic because it's used relatively frequently. Your other comments are on the mark.

Please note that none of these attacks were by disgruntled housewives.

respectfully,

Jeff

 

[BlackCatBonz]

It's too bad there isn't much footage of real knife attacks. I'd have to say most people who pick up a knife to use it have little training - most people (at least here where I live) carry a knife as a tool, not as a weapon per se. There aren't too many really skilled knife fighters who are going to randomly attack you without reason - though it is certainly possible and one should train for as many possibilities as ... well ... possible.

I'd also have to say if I felt I was unarmed against a skilled knife fighter I'd turn to my backup Run-Kwik-Do as well.

i know......personally, i love watching people get ginsu'd.

 

[shesulsa]

i know......personally, i love watching people get ginsu'd.

Hmmmm ... not my intent, but okay ....

 

[Nanalo74]

i know......personally, i love watching people get ginsu'd.

LOL!!

Vic
www.combatartsusa.com