Do You Need A Teacher?

[MJS]

How important do you feel it is to have a teacher, so that you can continue your learning and continue to enhance your skills? For the sake of discussion, lets say that you had a teacher, someone that you trained with on a regular basis. For whatever reason, you no longer train under that teacher. They either passed on, or for personal reasons, you cut all ties with them. So, now you're left with your dojo, your black belts, and your students.

Would you consider attending seminars as a replacement for a teacher, whom you'd see on a regular basis? Would you seek out a new teacher, in the same art?

 

[MJS]

To answer my question...IMO, I feel that it is important to have a teacher, someone that you can go to, to continue your training. I honestly don't feel that going to a seminar or camp is enough to take the place of a teacher. Now sure, the people teaching are of course teachers, but for myself, I don't consider someone conducting a seminar *MY* teacher, unless I was regularly training under that person. I would think that if you wanted to continue to grow and improve as a martial artist, that you'd need someone who can help you reach those goals of growing and improving.

 

[clfsean]

A teacher is must.

A seminar is an option.

No two ways around it in my book. If my teacher & I became separate for whatever reason to where there was no training, I'd find a new teacher. It might take a while, I might have to change what I study, but a teacher is a must.

 

[Flying Crane]

The system that I train is rare, with very few people teaching it in the world, much less in my area. In my estimation, most of the few people who do teach it, do not do so very well. I am extremely fortunate to have the teacher that I have.

I cannot imagine going outside of my school to find another teacher, in the system that I train. If Sifu passed on, I would continue to train with my sihing, my senior classmates who know more of the system than I do. Other than that, I do not believe that I would benefit from trying to find another teacher in my system. I do not believe I would find one nearby, and if so, I am doubtful that they would have much to teach me, at least in respect to quality.

I think it would really be up to myself and my Sihing to decide where we wanted to take things from there.

I have actually pondered this on occasion, and I think that even if I was not able to learn any more of my system, what I have is enough to be very effective and even "complete" in its own way. I have not learned the entire system, but I've learned enough to understand how the system works, and that is what is important. So I can be complete, as far as practicing Tibetan White Crane, even if I haven't learned the entire system. I'm not sure if I'm expressing this in a way that makes sense, but I'm trying...

The way Sifu teaches, he encourages us to learn and really make the system our own thru properly understanding it. That understanding is where the real lessons lie, not in the curriculum itself. Once you really understand what you have, the rest of the curriculum becomes less important, as it is simply a tool to help you understand how to do things, rather than a list of techniques that you "need".

If I decided to pursue another system, then obviously I would look for a new teacher.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Our sensei has a sensei. When one of his teachers passed away, he found another. His instructor is many states away, but our sensei speaks with him regularly and trains with him as often as possible. Our sensei, as good as he is, has told us that yes, he gets his kata examined and corrected, and yes, his kata sometimes drifts and needs to be tightened up; without his sensei, he would not know that. Our sensei's sensei does not have a sensei, but he's in his late 70's and his sensei was Shimabuku Soke.

 

[sfs982000]

I think that an instructor is a must, even if you tried to maintain your training on your own you need to have that guidance there to correct you if you start slipping up and to keep you on track. Training on your own until you could find another instructor is also a must if you wish to advance your training.

 

[geezer]

It is essential that you continue learning, but whether or not you continue to need a personal "teacher" in the traditional sense depends on a lot of factors. When, after about a dozen years of training, it became impossible for me to continue with my old wing tsun sifu, I basically quit. Fifteen years later I began training again with my old kung-fu brothers (who had become very good). Now they all live in other states and my own kung fu instruction is sporadic, but I carry on the best that I can. The same thing happened with my second art, escrima. I now train primarily with another group who's chief instructor was once a member of the group I started with in the early eighties, so there are some similarities in the systems. Nevertheless, I still practice and teach the original stuff I studied and I continue learn from many "teachers". But I no longer have one guro/sifu/sensei as I once did.

At first this situation bothered me, but then I recalled a conversation with my old escrima teacher. He pointed out that it's not important how many famous teachers you can claim, but rather it's what you can do that matters. And this coming from a man who, in his youth, studied personally under such FMA legends as Angel Cabales, Max, Sarmiento, Dentoy Revillar, Leo Giron, and his own father, who was himself an equally great Filipino fighter in the old country.

 

[Mark Lynn]

How important do you feel it is to have a teacher, so that you can continue your learning and continue to enhance your skills?

First off I believe it is very important to have a teacher, however I'll propose a different view point for the sake of discussion. To me the question really becomes do you as a practitioner at some point take on the art as your own and make it more of your own than your instructors? And if so then do you need an instructor to progress further?

For the sake of discussion, lets say that you had a teacher, someone that you trained with on a regular basis. For whatever reason, you no longer train under that teacher. They either passed on, or for personal reasons, you cut all ties with them. So, now you're left with your dojo, your black belts, and your students.

In this example you have proposed that you have your own school that you were running and you have raised black belts on your own and you have students under black belt. To me if you are a long time practitioner you don't need to have a teacher there with you. Rather I believe you can establish an relationship with a senior teacher (even long distance) to help guide you and reach a higher level. But to have one daily at your side to coach you along, I don't believe so. If there wasn't a teacher in your area or your art and that is impractical then who is to say you can't meet with other senior level instructors in your area and form a workout group or think tank so to speak.

Would you consider attending seminars as a replacement for a teacher, whom you'd see on a regular basis? Would you seek out a new teacher, in the same art?

I don't think seminars are a substitute for a regular instructor, however sticking with my post above in that scenario I do believe that attending seminars would be fine to stimulate the thought process and to maybe learn some new ideas that you can bring back to your school. I don't believe in just attending seminars in various arts and calling that really instruction but attending camps and seminars in your art is a different matter.

For instance over the years I have attended several FMA seminars in Modern Arnis, Kombatan, JKD Kali etc. etc. Since GM Remy (and GM Ernesto) have both passed on I have attended continued to attend camps put on by several of the top instructors in Modern Arnis, most recently attending the Time of Healing Camp in Buffalo. Do I get something out of the camps you bet, I get see and experience different view points, learn some different concepts, techniques etc. etc. However some of the most thought provoking instruction for me came over drinking beers after the training. I'm not joking here. If some of these instructors were in my area would I attend their classes instead of teaching my own? Yep. If they correct me on a technique do I consider it and if I accept it do I implement it in my class? Yep.

I don't see how this is wrong or bad. What I do not agree with is instructors with a few years of experience under their belts for whatever reason being orphaned and then getting no instruction or help and dieing on the vine or thinking they have reached their full potential. There is always room for growth.

Mark

 

[shihansmurf]

To quote Doc, "It Depends".

As a shotokan stylist I don't need a "teacher". I need peers that can give me good feedback. I don't need someone correcting my reverse punch. I have a pretty good one. I need someone telling me that I drop my leading shoulder a bit before I throw a jab.

As for my kenpo training, I absolutely need a teacher. I trained for several years in EPAK in Colorado and am working through the IKCA material. The teacher imput from Mr LeRoux is invaluable.

It Depends.
Mark

 

[Flying Crane]

It is essential that you continue learning, but whether or not you continue to need a personal "teacher" in the traditional sense depends on a lot of factors.

This sort of goes to the heart of it, yes? Seems to me that we are all learning something, and developing skills that ultimately are our own responsibility. We need to be able to take it away and make it our own. If we always need a teacher as a crutch, then we have failed in our responsibility to actually LEARN something, that goes beyond simple regurgitation, memorization, and mimicry.

My Sifu commented once, that he trained under his teachers for X years, and he LEARNED his stuff. He knows it, and that's that. He then left Hong Kong and ended up in the US, and does what he does. He stated specifically, that when he goes back to Hong Kong to visit, he doesn't ask his instructor to correct his stuff. He knows his stuff, and his Sifu knows that he knows it, so there's no reason to keep correcting him.

Maybe my Sifu is exceptional or something, but it seems to me that this is what all of us should be working towards. Just exactly when we reach that point, well that depends on a lot of things and varies tremendously from person to person.

 

[Rich Parsons]

How important do you feel it is to have a teacher, so that you can continue your learning and continue to enhance your skills?

It depends. I believe that for most people it is very important.

For the sake of discussion, lets say that you had a teacher, someone that you trained with on a regular basis. For whatever reason, you no longer train under that teacher. They either passed on, or for personal reasons, you cut all ties with them. So, now you're left with your dojo, your black belts, and your students.

I had one death and one stroke.

Would you consider attending seminars as a replacement for a teacher, whom you'd see on a regular basis?

Yes and No.

Would you seek out a new teacher, in the same art?

No.

****

Now to explain the above short answers.


For most poeple finding a new instructor is important. Be it someone nearby they see weekly or more or the student / teacher who is much further along in their career where a check up a few times a year is good to finally those few who go it alone and should and are capable of going it alone.

For those that go it alone and succeed at teaching, they are usually seniors in the arts with an open mind. They work with others and they look at themselves on video or in person or when someone asks a question and continues to try to improve. They enjoy the act of learning and improving. They move forward and will realize they make mistakes from time to time as others do.


Now, most people who do go alone, have an ego, and or think they are the best, and or do not look for feedback from others at all. The problem is that having an ego and being good may make you not like the person and they may fail for customer service but not for technical. Those that think they are they best will be found out over time. Many of these will also attack others to try to bring others down so they look good. Yet, this is not to take away from those that are just talking critically and providing honest feedback or comments.

It is all a fine line.

So for
most: Yes get a new instructor.
some: Get peers or seniors or others to critique you or teach a few times a year.
few: Self review and openmindedness with open exchange with others and treating even those who know nothing as a learning experience.

Thanks

 

[Ken Morgan]

It’s all about attitude; you have to be willing to learn from everybody, even lower ranks.

We will routinely practice and have someone else in the class critique the kata we have just done. I’m at the rank now that 99% of the time I am years beyond those telling me what they liked and didn’t like about my kata. I take it all and bounce it around, then try it again focusing on what I have just been told. More often than not, the lower ranks are correct in their evaluation. So you can improve, if you have an open mind.

My sensei had better be around for a long time….however, if he were to stop teaching for whatever reason, we/I have developed a good relationship with all the sensei in the organisation, that we could start training at any of their clubs and be welcomed. My Sensei encourages us, as do the other sensei to get out and practice with others in the organisation to gain another perspective and get new advice, that attitude has created a great culture.

 

[MJS]

The system that I train is rare, with very few people teaching it in the world, much less in my area. In my estimation, most of the few people who do teach it, do not do so very well. I am extremely fortunate to have the teacher that I have.

I cannot imagine going outside of my school to find another teacher, in the system that I train. If Sifu passed on, I would continue to train with my sihing, my senior classmates who know more of the system than I do. Other than that, I do not believe that I would benefit from trying to find another teacher in my system. I do not believe I would find one nearby, and if so, I am doubtful that they would have much to teach me, at least in respect to quality.

I think it would really be up to myself and my Sihing to decide where we wanted to take things from there.

I have actually pondered this on occasion, and I think that even if I was not able to learn any more of my system, what I have is enough to be very effective and even "complete" in its own way. I have not learned the entire system, but I've learned enough to understand how the system works, and that is what is important. So I can be complete, as far as practicing Tibetan White Crane, even if I haven't learned the entire system. I'm not sure if I'm expressing this in a way that makes sense, but I'm trying...

The way Sifu teaches, he encourages us to learn and really make the system our own thru properly understanding it. That understanding is where the real lessons lie, not in the curriculum itself. Once you really understand what you have, the rest of the curriculum becomes less important, as it is simply a tool to help you understand how to do things, rather than a list of techniques that you "need".

If I decided to pursue another system, then obviously I would look for a new teacher.

Yes, in that case, I don't blame you. Actually, while I don't study arts that're hard to find, I'm fortunate to have the teachers that I do. To be honest, were something to happen to them, I'd probably do the same thing....train with my current training partners. Sometimes, even though there are other teachers around, teaching the same art, the quality just isn't the same. Its times like this, when I'm really blessed to have the people that I do.

 

[MJS]

First off I believe it is very important to have a teacher, however I'll propose a different view point for the sake of discussion. To me the question really becomes do you as a practitioner at some point take on the art as your own and make it more of your own than your instructors? And if so then do you need an instructor to progress further?

Thats a good point. To take that a step further, I suppose we could ask....is there a time when you learn all you can from your teacher? But, to answer your question...I suppose I do that now, with 2 of my arts, although I have teachers in both, yet I add my own 'flavor' to the way I do things. I'm not a clone of my Arnis teacher. We both do the same thing, but there will always be subtle differences in what we do, as far as movement, etc.

In this example you have proposed that you have your own school that you were running and you have raised black belts on your own and you have students under black belt. To me if you are a long time practitioner you don't need to have a teacher there with you. Rather I believe you can establish an relationship with a senior teacher (even long distance) to help guide you and reach a higher level. But to have one daily at your side to coach you along, I don't believe so. If there wasn't a teacher in your area or your art and that is impractical then who is to say you can't meet with other senior level instructors in your area and form a workout group or think tank so to speak.

Agreed. My apologies if I gave the impression of the need to have a teacher with you, at your school. No, I'm talking about a teacher in general. Ex: I don't have my own school, however, my Kenpo teacher is in New Jersey, I'm in CT.

I don't think seminars are a substitute for a regular instructor, however sticking with my post above in that scenario I do believe that attending seminars would be fine to stimulate the thought process and to maybe learn some new ideas that you can bring back to your school. I don't believe in just attending seminars in various arts and calling that really instruction but attending camps and seminars in your art is a different matter.

For instance over the years I have attended several FMA seminars in Modern Arnis, Kombatan, JKD Kali etc. etc. Since GM Remy (and GM Ernesto) have both passed on I have attended continued to attend camps put on by several of the top instructors in Modern Arnis, most recently attending the Time of Healing Camp in Buffalo. Do I get something out of the camps you bet, I get see and experience different view points, learn some different concepts, techniques etc. etc. However some of the most thought provoking instruction for me came over drinking beers after the training. I'm not joking here. If some of these instructors were in my area would I attend their classes instead of teaching my own? Yep. If they correct me on a technique do I consider it and if I accept it do I implement it in my class? Yep.

I don't see how this is wrong or bad. What I do not agree with is instructors with a few years of experience under their belts for whatever reason being orphaned and then getting no instruction or help and dieing on the vine or thinking they have reached their full potential. There is always room for growth.

Mark

Thanks for your reply.

 

[MJS]

It depends. I believe that for most people it is very important.



I had one death and one stroke.




Yes and No.



No.

****

Now to explain the above short answers.


For most poeple finding a new instructor is important. Be it someone nearby they see weekly or more or the student / teacher who is much further along in their career where a check up a few times a year is good to finally those few who go it alone and should and are capable of going it alone.

For those that go it alone and succeed at teaching, they are usually seniors in the arts with an open mind. They work with others and they look at themselves on video or in person or when someone asks a question and continues to try to improve. They enjoy the act of learning and improving. They move forward and will realize they make mistakes from time to time as others do.


Now, most people who do go alone, have an ego, and or think they are the best, and or do not look for feedback from others at all. The problem is that having an ego and being good may make you not like the person and they may fail for customer service but not for technical. Those that think they are they best will be found out over time. Many of these will also attack others to try to bring others down so they look good. Yet, this is not to take away from those that are just talking critically and providing honest feedback or comments.

It is all a fine line.

So for
most: Yes get a new instructor.
some: Get peers or seniors or others to critique you or teach a few times a year.
few: Self review and openmindedness with open exchange with others and treating even those who know nothing as a learning experience.

Thanks

Thanks for an honest reply Rich! I guess I'm just looking at it like this....if there're people around, that you can call your teacher and be their student, why not do it? Eventually, those people won't be around anymore.

 

[Cali Gal]

Definitely need a teacher.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Definitely need a teacher.

First off, welcome to martial talk! Hope you like it here. Second, let's dig deeper. Why do you believe this is the case?

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

I haven't experienced this situation yet, but I can imagine that it can be really hard for me to stay up to date in order to teach my students new things in my curriculum. If I didn't have a Sensei, I would either attended some seminars to upgrade my learning until I find another Sensei. If I don't upgrade my learning, I would teach repetitive things and lose some students because of it.

 

[geezer]

It depends. I believe that for most people it is very important. It is all a fine line. So for...

most: Yes get a new instructor.
some: Get peers or seniors or others to critique you or teach a few times a year.
few: Self review and openmindedness with open exchange with others and treating even those who know nothing as a learning experience.

Good breakdown Rich.

I guess I am in the "some" category,more by circumstance than by choice. I still have "go-to people" to instruct me, but they live far away... two are in other states.

I'd rather be in the "most" group though. Learning was easier with a good instructor around all the time, and having more fellow students around made practice and refinement easier... not to mention motivation. Now I have to motivate myself and try to motivate and maintain my own group of students.

My former instructors were in the "few" category. They were the heads of their systems and had no one over them. IMHO only a few gifted, driven, and sometimes egotistical individuals belong in this group.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Thanks for an honest reply Rich! I guess I'm just looking at it like this....if there're people around, that you can call your teacher and be their student, why not do it? Eventually, those people won't be around anymore.

Mike, I was training in and teaching Modern Arnis.I started training in Balintwak. I had in my backyard ( 1 hour plus away ) a Grandmaster of a system who was selective in who he trained and only did it one on one. I signed up and paid the private costs and the driving time and costs. I enjoyed. If I had someone like them I know I would continue in that track. Without someone like that available to me, I use peers and self review. i.e. I made a quick video with Dan Anderson at the Modern Arnis Healing Camp last summer at Tim's. He agreed to only use it for his personal training. He sent me a DVD and asked me a question about a specific time with a specific technqiue. I explained that to do it the way I did it, could only happen in one of a three ways. 1) I had no respect for the opponents timing and knew I was that much better. 2) I was sloppy and took the short cut. 3) It was expediant to just do it that was as it was a demonstration. I answered him telling him I was sloppy. The first would have ben disrespectful and the last is not the wat to properly make a video for someone to learn by. So while I did the technique and I while I pulled it off it was not the "Proper" way. So I then went and checked myself with that with others and realized that when I was relaxed and just playing around I would occasionaly do it. So I worked on it to correct it. This is the critical Sels Assesment I was talking about. To admit to yourself and others a mistake was made and that yes you are human, and move forward to correct the mistake for the future.