Do you modify your Wing Chun when sparring?

[Gerry Seymour]

But....bottom-line....fighting is fighting. If someone has problems getting their martial art and what they have trained to work in a sparring situation, they are very likely to have trouble getting it to work in a real situation.

I think this is the key point for discussion, really. If you can't make the system (not necessarily individual techniques) work in some kind of relatively open sparring, it probably has issues - or you do. That's no guarantee it's going to be useful in any given defensive situation, but the odds are better if it works in sparring. And there's really only one way to know that answer.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Let's make this discussion simple. If you hit on your heavy bag 100 times daily, in 1 year you have hit on your heavy bag 36,000 times. In 10 years, you have hit on heavy bag 365,000 times. Comparing to an average street guy who may not even hit on heavy bag at all, if you still lose a fight against this guy, you should get a rope, find a quite place, and hang yourself.

Hitting that heavy bag - even hitting it well - doesn't mean you can hit a moving target. It probably means you can hit with some power (we're assuming some decent practice here), so if you connect, you'll probably have an effect. It also doesn't help with toughening the reaction to getting hit, so if the other guy gets his shot in first (heavy bag does nothing to teach set-up to get a hit in), he may gain a big advantage. I'd trade about 250,000 of those heavy bag hits for at least monthly sparring.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

small weak uncoordinated people

Argumentum ad absurdum. Nobody said small, weak, and uncoordinated - except you.

 

[jobo]

Argumentum ad absurdum. Nobody said small, weak, and uncoordinated - except you.

He said he was just as likely to be fighting people who are NOT big strong and well co ordinated, and that makes them small weak and unco ordinated, relatively speaking, doesn't it ?

perhaps if people accurate ly described the attributes of the people they think they can defend against rather than wishy washy, vague streey thug stereo types that have no bearing on reality I wouldn't have to do my mind reading act, ?

 

[jobo]

Argumentum ad absurdum. Nobody said small, weak, and uncoordinated - except you.

He said he was just as likely to be fighting people who are NOT big strong and well co ordinated, and that makes them small weak and unco ordinated, relatively speaking, doesn't it ?

perhaps if people accurate ly described the attributes of the people they think they can defend against rather than wishy washy, vague streey thug stereo types that have no bearing on reality I wouldn't have to do my mind reading act, ?

 

[Gweilo]

He said he was just as likely to be fighting people who are NOT big strong and well co ordinated, and that makes them small weak and unco ordinated, relatively speaking, doesn't it ?

perhaps if people accurate ly described the attributes of the people they think they can defend against rather than wishy washy, vague streey thug stereo types that have no bearing on reality I wouldn't have to do my mind reading act, ?

Somebodys tired

 

[Dirty Dog]

He said he was just as likely to be fighting people who are NOT big strong and well co ordinated, and that makes them small weak and unco ordinated, relatively speaking, doesn't it ?

Because people only exist in those two extremes. All the people in the middle (which is actually the vast majority of the world) don't exist, to your mind?

 

[jobo]

Because people only exist in those two extremes. All the people in the middle (which is actually the vast majority of the world) don't exist, to your mind?

that's a straw man, as it clearly not what I just said and you quoted, I identified that these terms that people throw about , like strength and fitness and co ordination, are relative terms that only mean anything in comparison to someone else.

now you happen to know what the mean strength for all the " pepole in the world is, then t put it up,

but it's largely irrelevant, as it will contain lots of women and children and old folks. that are unlikely to attack you, we are only really interested in the strength of healthy adult males, who are far more likely to attack than some elderly chap with chronic asthma or some middle aged account ant who play golf.

but the only comparison that actual matters is between you and your attacker , if he is stronger than you , you are weak, if your faster than him he is slow,.

it makes a certain amount of Sence if your preparing for an attack, to not to assume that the person will be physically inferior to you and lacking in athletic ability like speed and reactions and co ordinated movement

 

[Dirty Dog]

that's a straw man, as it clearly not what I just said and you quoted

Actually, it is exactly what you said. Here. I'll quote it again.

He said he was just as likely to be fighting people who are NOT big strong and well co ordinated, and that makes them small weak and unco ordinated, relatively speaking, doesn't it ?

There. See where you say it? Anyone who isn't big, strong and well coordinated is, according to you, by definition, small weak and unco ordinated [sic]. It's a silly think to think, but it is what you said.
If that isn't what you meant, well, it's not my fault you can't express yourself clearly.
Perhaps you'd like to retract the statement and try to write what you really mean?

 

[jobo]

Actually, it is exactly what you said. Here. I'll quote it again.


There. See where you say it? Anyone who isn't big, strong and well coordinated is, according to you, by definition, small weak and unco ordinated [sic]. It's a silly think to think, but it is what you said.
If that isn't what you meant, well, it's not my fault you can't express yourself clearly.
Perhaps you'd like to retract the statement and try to write what you really mean?

I think you need some new reading glasses, I said " relatively speaking"

 

[KPM]

I think this is the key point for discussion, really. If you can't make the system (not necessarily individual techniques) work in some kind of relatively open sparring, it probably has issues - or you do. That's no guarantee it's going to be useful in any given defensive situation, but the odds are better if it works in sparring. And there's really only one way to know that answer.

Exactly! And why Jobo has chosen to turn this whole thing into an argument about anything but the central point I have been trying to make is beyond me! Maybe he just likes to argue?

 

[KPM]

He said he was just as likely to be fighting people who are NOT big strong and well co ordinated, and that makes them small weak and unco ordinated, relatively speaking, doesn't it ?

perhaps if people accurate ly described the attributes of the people they think they can defend against rather than wishy washy, vague streey thug stereo types that have no bearing on reality I wouldn't have to do my mind reading act, ?

Here is what I ACTUALLY said:

The typical attacker on the street may have malicious intent, but is most likely not a skilled fighter. They are typically expecting an easy target, not someone that is going to fight back....and certainly not someone who is a martial artist. So if you survive that initial attack and end up in more of "squared off to fight" situation, chances are you will be facing someone less skilled than you and that will be taken by surprise BY YOU, because they will not be expecting you to put up any kind of real fight. So in some respects, once you overcome the fear and nerves and survive what was likely a surprise attack or sucker punch, this should be easier than facing a skilled competitor that knows your style and is expecting you to "bring it." So if you can't make your martial are work in a hard sparring or competition situation, how do you expect to make it work on the street?

Notice the words "most likely" and "chances are"? I still maintain that the average attacker on the street is NOT your "big bloke" and likely does not have much training or real skill at fighting. Now, contrary to your conclusion, that does NOT mean that they will be "small, weak and uncoordinated." And it also does not mean that encountering your "big bloke" is not possible, just not typical! You are the one creating strawman arguments here!

 

[jobo]

Here is what I ACTUALLY said:

The typical attacker on the street may have malicious intent, but is most likely not a skilled fighter. They are typically expecting an easy target, not someone that is going to fight back....and certainly not someone who is a martial artist. So if you survive that initial attack and end up in more of "squared off to fight" situation, chances are you will be facing someone less skilled than you and that will be taken by surprise BY YOU, because they will not be expecting you to put up any kind of real fight. So in some respects, once you overcome the fear and nerves and survive what was likely a surprise attack or sucker punch, this should be easier than facing a skilled competitor that knows your style and is expecting you to "bring it." So if you can't make your martial are work in a hard sparring or competition situation, how do you expect to make it work on the street?

Notice the words "most likely" and "chances are"? I still maintain that the average attacker on the street is NOT your "big bloke" and likely does not have much training or real skill at fighting. Now, contrary to your conclusion, that does NOT mean that they will be "small, weak and uncoordinated." And it also does not mean that encountering your "big bloke" is not possible, just not typical! You are the one creating strawman arguments here!

Well what dies " most likely" and chances are mean ? Its Its clear your sugesting that a high % of people who night attack you are not big and have no diserabable fighting skills, and I think that is over optimistic in the extreme. And certainly not an assumption id like to base my self defence strategy and hence my life on.

I'm getting the imprestion that you haven't had a lot of " street fights " and have no measure even a subjective one, to base your assesment of your relative fighting skills against those of an experienced street brawler. Rather you've bought ibto the common ma delusion, that your skills will top the athletic ability if attackers and even worse than that , you've convinced yourself, that their athelitc abilities will be very low.

 

[jobo]

Exactly! And why Jobo has chosen to turn this whole thing into an argument about anything but the central point I have been trying to make is beyond me! Maybe he just likes to argue?

I'm trying to make what I believe to be a valid point, but not one a lot of ma. Want to hear as it shatters their illusion s,

No one is debating that sparing is better than not sparring, but its actual real life indication of if your mastered a technique to make it work ibmb the real world, is totally dependent on who you are sparring against, a closed shop of people who have learnt the same technique from the same instucter and only practise on each other is likely to lead to delusions of competancy.

For instance I can easily beat every one at my karate class including two of the instructors, (with the notable exception of floyd who is built like a middle weight boxer, becouse he is a middle weight boxer) just using street fighting techniques I learnt in my teenaged years when I was in a lot of fight, and the fact that I'm strong and fast, if some of them gave up a night of karate to go weight training or play soccer they might be more of a challenge

I could take that to mean I'm a good fighter, but I know the truth that a 25 yo me would easily beat me up, because he was stronger and faster, and there fore there's a very good chance that any strong fast 25 yo with basic skills could do the same.

 

[Gweilo]

I'm getting the imprestion that you haven't had a lot of " street fights " and have no measure even a subjective one, to base your assesment of your relative fighting skills against those of an experienced street brawler. Rather you've bought ibto the common ma delusion, that your skills will top the athletic ability if attackers and even worse than that , you've convinced yourself, that their athelitc abilities will be very low.

Whilst it is true there are some experienced street brawlers out there, the vast % of attacks are from drunken wanna be's, or an incident of crime, both probably not very skillful, or oportunists, preying on someone they perceive to be weeker.

 

[Gweilo]

I could take that to mean I'm a good fighter, but I know the truth that a 25 yo me would easily beat me up, because he was stronger and faster, and there fore there's a very good chance that any strong fast 25 yo with basic skills could do the same.

I think that says more about yourself than MA

 

[jobo]

Whilst it is true there are some experienced street brawlers out there, the vast % of attacks are from drunken wanna be's, or an incident of crime, both probably not very skillful, or oportunists, preying on someone they perceive to be weeker.

I dealt with the fact, that drunks are commonly delusion and are only really a problem if there's a few of them.
But there's a very good chance the predator is correct in his assumption ,

 

[jobo]

Whilst it is true there are some experienced street brawlers out there, the vast % of attacks are from drunken wanna be's, or an incident of crime, both probably not very skillful, or oportunists, preying on someone they perceive to be weeker.

I dealt with the fact, that drunks are commonly delusion and are only really a problem if there's a few of them.
But there's a very good chance the predator is correct in his assumption , and we are still getting this " not very skilled" he doesn't need to be very skilled, just very good at a few simple techneques

 

[jobo]

Whilst it is true there are some experienced street brawlers out there, the vast % of attacks are from drunken wanna be's, or an incident of crime, both probably not very skillful, or oportunists, preying on someone they perceive to be weeker.

I dealt with the fact, that drunks are commonly delusion and are only really a problem if there's a few of them.
But there's a very good chance the predator is correct in his assumption , and we are still getting this " not very skilled" he doesn't need to be very skilled, just very good at a few simple techneques

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

he doesn't need to be very skilled, just very good at a few simple techneques

You can also assume that you are "very good at a few simple techniques". This is why you train MA for. If your toes push kick (simple technique) can stop all attackers, nobody can punch you. It's the one technique that you can use it to deal with all punches (leg is longer than the arm).