Do you modify your Wing Chun when sparring?

KPM

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 6, 2014
Messages
3,642
Reaction score
992
that it was basically training some good attributes through intentional overstatement or exaggeration.

Now think on this guys......what other sport or physical activity spends a huge percentage of its time training and practicing very exaggerated versions of the movements or mechanics it truly intends to use???
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
29,870
Reaction score
10,411
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Now think on this guys......what other sport or physical activity spends a huge percentage of its time training and practicing very exaggerated versions of the movements or mechanics it truly intends to use???
I've been thinking about this lately. And I think teaching sports to kids is a reasonable example. If you show kids the same tennis swing a pro would use, they will do odd parts wrong. If you exaggerate parts of it, they'll exaggerate those more. If you exaggerate just exactly the right things, you can get them to develop the right mechanics.

The issue in that model comes when one of those children tries to teach another child, before getting to the stage where they truly understand what they are doing. They start teaching the exaggeration as the proper swing. I think it's possible that's what we see in many traditional arts. I don't know if it explains WC, or the arts I trained in, but it's an explanation I've been toying with.
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
15,196
Reaction score
4,856
Location
San Francisco
I was observing a yudansha (black belt and above) class today, and they were working on weapons kata. At one point, the instructor leading the exercise was trying to explain that there are multiple ways to get to the "stop points", and how you get there matters more than the stance in the picture. "What's in the middle matters."
Yup. You dont get power from a stance. You get power from the transition between one stance to another.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
13,950
Reaction score
4,445
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
Now think on this guys......what other sport or physical activity spends a huge percentage of its time training and practicing very exaggerated versions of the movements or mechanics it truly intends to use???
The

- solo training is trying to push your body limitation to the maximum.
- application is to use the least amount of force to achieve the maximum result.

This is application.

leg-lift.jpg


This is solo training.

 
OP
G

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
7,356
Reaction score
3,557
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Yup. You dont get power from a stance. You get power from the transition between one stance to another.

Very true ...since power requires motion, and if your power is generated using your entire body, then your whole body must be involved in that motion, although the movement may be quite small.

On the other hand, there are useful methods of striking that don't engage whole body movement the same way, in which a static, rooted stance is used to keep from bleeding off whatever power you have.
 

KPM

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 6, 2014
Messages
3,642
Reaction score
992
The

- solo training is trying to push your body limitation to the maximum.
- application is to use the least amount of force to achieve the maximum result.

This is application.

leg-lift.jpg


This is solo training.


That looks like pretty much the same thing, just the second one doesn't have a partner. I wouldn't say that is "greatly exaggerated."

Do runners greatly exaggerate their running mechanics in training? Do tennis players greatly exaggerate the motions of their serve compared to the actual serve? Do boxers greatly exaggerate the mechanics of their punch compared to how they punch in the ring? Do ice skaters greatly exaggerate their jumps and spins compared to what they do in competition? To say that the mechanics of your martial art that you are using 90% of the time in training are "exaggerated" to the point that when you apply them in a real situation they are unrecognizable just seems a bit odd.
 

KPM

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 6, 2014
Messages
3,642
Reaction score
992
Here is some more "food for thought".

The typical attacker on the street may have malicious intent, but is most likely not a skilled fighter. They are typically expecting an easy target, not someone that is going to fight back....and certainly not someone who is a martial artist. So if you survive that initial attack and end up in more of "squared off to fight" situation, chances are you will be facing someone less skilled than you and that will be taken by surprise BY YOU, because they will not be expecting you to put up any kind of real fight. So in some respects, once you overcome the fear and nerves and survive what was likely a surprise attack or sucker punch, this should be easier than facing a skilled competitor that knows your style and is expecting you to "bring it." So if you can't make your martial are work in a hard sparring or competition situation, how do you expect to make it work on the street?
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
15,196
Reaction score
4,856
Location
San Francisco
Very true ...since power requires motion, and if your power is generated using your entire body, then your whole body must be involved in that motion, although the movement may be quite small.

On the other hand, there are useful methods of striking that don't engage whole body movement the same way, in which a static, rooted stance is used to keep from bleeding off whatever power you have.
True. Yet that static, rooted stance still has some pressing from the feet which still engages the body and adds to the power. It still is not only arm/shoulder driven. It still gets power from the foundation.

This is an example of an application that has dropped the larger movement. Ill bet bucks that it works better if you go through the process of training larger movement first, which likely also includes a stance change.
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
15,196
Reaction score
4,856
Location
San Francisco
That looks like pretty much the same thing, just the second one doesn't have a partner. I wouldn't say that is "greatly exaggerated."

Do runners greatly exaggerate their running mechanics in training? Do tennis players greatly exaggerate the motions of their serve compared to the actual serve? Do boxers greatly exaggerate the mechanics of their punch compared to how they punch in the ring? Do ice skaters greatly exaggerate their jumps and spins compared to what they do in competition? To say that the mechanics of your martial art that you are using 90% of the time in training are "exaggerated" to the point that when you apply them in a real situation they are unrecognizable just seems a bit odd.
Runners do drills that include exaggerated movements.

I dont know much about the others. I dont play tennis, dont ice skate, dont Box. But if they dont, they should.
 

KPM

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 6, 2014
Messages
3,642
Reaction score
992
Runners do drills that include exaggerated movements.

.

As a small part of their training, not as the majority of their training. Would you expect a runner in competition to look nothing like the same runner in training?
 

PiedmontChun

Purple Belt
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Messages
323
Reaction score
134
I've learned things in multiple arts that were exaggerated in practice and became much more streamlined in practice. Its not that the exaggerated way is wrong or ineffective, but speed or resistance changes the dynamic of the movement. We drilled a BJJ guard pass on the ground the other day that if the guy on his back just laid there and let you do it - its a simply awful, punishing technique that stacks and compresses their legs into their body until they want you to clear their legs and just get a dominant side control on them already. The reality is in sparring though, the guy on the bottom is going to fight to make some distance and not get stacked, move their hips to change the angle and take some pressure off, etc. So the pass still works, but some of the nuance is skipped and it doesn't look the same if the guy knows how to move and resist it. If you learned it just by watching it in action with resistance, you would think it was just one thing and would not have the wider knowledge of the technique gained by drilling it the more exaggerated way.

As far as in WC jusst across the board - I remember chi-sau'ing with technician level WT guys and it seemed like their movements were just effortless and fluid, far less "digital" than the forms and drills I was working on to the point it was unrecognizable at times. But the rigid forms / drills that all of this movement was based on had to be grasped first for them.
 

Danny T

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
4,258
Reaction score
2,293
Location
New Iberia, Louisiana USA
Now think on this guys......what other sport or physical activity spends a huge percentage of its time training and practicing very exaggerated versions of the movements or mechanics it truly intends to use???
In thinking back over the many years I can recall every athletic thing I trained has some practice with exaggerated movement. Today I teach especially new things with a slow exaggerated movement and then refine from there. That stated I don't recall an huge percentage of time practicing such especially once the gross motions were known. From time to time a bit of it, yes but any huge percentage of time? Nope. Not even in all the different martial arts I've trained except for forms training and that is only a small part of what we train.
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
15,196
Reaction score
4,856
Location
San Francisco
As a small part of their training, not as the majority of their training. Would you expect a runner in competition to look nothing like the same runner in training?
I understand that exaggerated movement is part of the training process.

Opinions may differ on how much is appropriate.
 

yak sao

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
2,183
Reaction score
761
' - I remember chi-sau'ing with technician level WT guys and it seemed like their movements were just effortless and fluid, far less "digital" than the forms and drills I was working on to the point it was unrecognizable at times. But the rigid forms / drills that all of this movement was based on had to be grasped first for them.

To watch my old WT sifu in action, many times it would just look like he was chain punching.
But when he slowed it down and showed what just took place, there would be a tan sau, a bong sau, a pak sau ....
He had become so proficient at the movements that they almost didn't exist. They were split seconds in time.

Same with footwork. What looks choppy and unworkable in a beginner, becomes effortless and very natural-looking when you see someone who's advanced doing the same movements
 

KPM

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 6, 2014
Messages
3,642
Reaction score
992
Sure. There is some value in exaggerating things to emphasize a certain aspect of training, or to help teach to beginners. But this is not what I'm talking about. Further up in the discussion it was said that martial arts based on principles won't look like what they train when applying them. I pointed out that the biomechanics of a martial art are just as important as the principles. The forms and drills teach a specific way to move that is unique to that particular martial art. So why wouldn't someone using that martial art in a fight or sparring situation actually LOOK like that martial art? The response was this:

In training, those biomechanics are exaggerated as a way to emphasize the lesson. That is what gives a system its particular look. The biomechanics are based on the principles. If you are using the principles, then the biomechanics are still there, even if no longer exaggerated. So again, in combat, it can look quite different.

This is the way of thinking that I am questioning and that doesn't make sense to me. If all of your forms and drills and training are so exaggerated that they don't look anything like what you are applying, then this is unlike ANY other sport or physical activity I know of. No other physical activity that I am aware of spends all of their training time greatly exaggerating their biomechanics to the point that it looks "quite different" when they actually use or apply what they have been training.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
29,870
Reaction score
10,411
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Sure. There is some value in exaggerating things to emphasize a certain aspect of training, or to help teach to beginners. But this is not what I'm talking about. Further up in the discussion it was said that martial arts based on principles won't look like what they train when applying them. I pointed out that the biomechanics of a martial art are just as important as the principles. The forms and drills teach a specific way to move that is unique to that particular martial art. So why wouldn't someone using that martial art in a fight or sparring situation actually LOOK like that martial art? The response was this:

In training, those biomechanics are exaggerated as a way to emphasize the lesson. That is what gives a system its particular look. The biomechanics are based on the principles. If you are using the principles, then the biomechanics are still there, even if no longer exaggerated. So again, in combat, it can look quite different.

This is the way of thinking that I am questioning and that doesn't make sense to me. If all of your forms and drills and training are so exaggerated that they don't look anything like what you are applying, then this is unlike ANY other sport or physical activity I know of. No other physical activity that I am aware of spends all of their training time greatly exaggerating their biomechanics to the point that it looks "quite different" when they actually use or apply what they have been training.
Let me give an example from outside WC, to see if this helps. When I train/teach primary aiki principles, those are best learned by using a stylized approach. The attacks get somewhat exaggerated, so they will consistently feed the inputs needed to practice specifically aiki responses. Because of the exaggerated inputs, the response has to use exaggerated motion (in fact, part of the training is to match the response to the input in this manner). So, if you watched me doing what we call "classical technique" training, then watched me using the same techniques in freestyle grappling, it would look like two different styles - even if I was using the aiki versions of those techniques. But to those who train the style, they'd immediately recognize one as a specific kind of training and the other as the application of that training.

It sounds to me like folks are saying the same thing about their WC training. And that would lead me to expect the same caveat: if you do too much of the stylized stuff, you won't be able to make the transition to the actual application. Your attempt would look more like the stylized training drill, but wouldn't match the input, so would fail.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
13,950
Reaction score
4,445
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
Let me give an example from outside WC, to see if this helps.
When I train the "front cut" solo drill, I will touch my hand on the ground. It can help me to train both

- flexibility, and
- commitment.


If I can still do like this old man did when he was 72 years old, my body flexibility will be OK. How to maintain that body flexibility? The answer is "exaggeration move".

 
Last edited:

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
15,196
Reaction score
4,856
Location
San Francisco
Sure. There is some value in exaggerating things to emphasize a certain aspect of training, or to help teach to beginners. But this is not what I'm talking about. Further up in the discussion it was said that martial arts based on principles won't look like what they train when applying them. I pointed out that the biomechanics of a martial art are just as important as the principles. The forms and drills teach a specific way to move that is unique to that particular martial art. So why wouldn't someone using that martial art in a fight or sparring situation actually LOOK like that martial art? The response was this:

In training, those biomechanics are exaggerated as a way to emphasize the lesson. That is what gives a system its particular look. The biomechanics are based on the principles. If you are using the principles, then the biomechanics are still there, even if no longer exaggerated. So again, in combat, it can look quite different.

This is the way of thinking that I am questioning and that doesn't make sense to me. If all of your forms and drills and training are so exaggerated that they don't look anything like what you are applying, then this is unlike ANY other sport or physical activity I know of. No other physical activity that I am aware of spends all of their training time greatly exaggerating their biomechanics to the point that it looks "quite different" when they actually use or apply what they have been training.
This may be something that requires face-to-face work in order to adequately convey how it works. In the mean time, if it has not been part of your experience then it may simply not make sense to you. Nothing wrong with that.

I will say though that the exaggeration is not so much that it looks NOTHING like how you would actually use it. The punches still look like punches, for example. But we exaggerate the body rotation in practice, to reinforce the lessons on full body connection. In actual use, the exaggeration goes away but the body connection has been established and is still there.

We do not see this as something that you would grow out of and advance beyond the need to continue the practice. We see it as something that always benefits from further practice, so we keep doing it. In that regard its a bit like a musician practicing scales. It is so fundamental to the method that it is always a big part of the practice.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KPM

jobo

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
9,762
Reaction score
1,514
Location
Manchester UK
id
Here is some more "food for thought".

The typical attacker on the street may have malicious intent, but is most likely not a skilled fighter. They are typically expecting an easy target, not someone that is going to fight back....and certainly not someone who is a martial artist. So if you survive that initial attack and end up in more of "squared off to fight" situation, chances are you will be facing someone less skilled than you and that will be taken by surprise BY YOU, because they will not be expecting you to put up any kind of real fight. So in some respects, once you overcome the fear and nerves and survive what was likely a surprise attack or sucker punch, this should be easier than facing a skilled competitor that knows your style and is expecting you to "bring it." So if you can't make your martial are work in a hard sparring or competition situation, how do you expect to make it work on the street?[/QUOTEI'd sayou try information to build a very narrow set of circumstances, certainly if you face someone with no fighting skills, poor fitness and slow reactions then you have every chance of winning, but people like that don't normally attack peopke in the street, unless they are drunk and or have big mates with them.

here are people who have been fighting every week since they were five, by the time they get to 25 they have built up a set of dependable fighting skills, they may not have many techniques, but they are proficient in what they do, if they have also been weight training, work in a manual job or play sports, then they will be quite a handful,

I'd say a street attack is far more likely to come from the second group, if you thinking you won't get attack by someone very strong, very fast who can throw a good punch, then your living in fantasy land.
 

jobo

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
9,762
Reaction score
1,514
Location
Manchester UK
Here is some more "food for thought".

The typical attacker on the street may have malicious intent, but is most likely not a skilled fighter. They are typically expecting an easy target, not someone that is going to fight back....and certainly not someone who is a martial artist. So if you survive that initial attack and end up in more of "squared off to fight" situation, chances are you will be facing someone less skilled than you and that will be taken by surprise BY YOU, because they will not be expecting you to put up any kind of real fight. So in some respects, once you overcome the fear and nerves and survive what was likely a surprise attack or sucker punch, this should be easier than facing a skilled competitor that knows your style and is expecting you to "bring it." So if you can't make your martial are work in a hard sparring or competition situation, how do you expect to make it work on the street?
'id sayou tryING to build a very narrow set of circumstances, certainly if you face someone with no fighting skills, poor fitness and slow reactions then you have every chance of winning, but people like that don't normally attack peopke in the street, unless they are drunk and or have big mates with them. t here are people who have been fighting every week since they were five, by the time they get to 25 they have built up a set of dependable fighting skills, they may not have many techniques, but they are proficient in what they do, if they have also been weight training, work in a manual job or play sports, then they will be quite a handful, I'd say a street attack is far more likely to come from the second group, if your thinking you won't get attack by someone very strong, very fast who can throw a good puntry and just walk through your best effort then your living in fantasy land.
 

Latest Discussions

Top