Do you believe EPAK was finally complete?

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Robert,

I suggest that you give your definition of what it means to be innovative, progressive, etc. so that we can know what the heck it is that you want. Several people have explained things that they believe to be truly innovative to kenpo (innovative meaning to add something new). Some have added things or expounded upon vague subsets of kenpo all of which they believe will make the art of kenpo better (more efficient and more effective). So unless you have a different definition I don't see how you can continue to argue your particular position.

I recently became aware of an idea referred to as Cognitive Dissonance. This seems to explain your obstinance towards new ideas (quite well actually).

 

[MJS]

Robert,

I suggest that you give your definition of what it means to be innovative, progressive, etc. so that we can know what the heck it is that you want. Several people have explained things that they believe to be truly innovative to kenpo (innovative meaning to add something new). Some have added things or expounded upon vague subsets of kenpo all of which they believe will make the art of kenpo better (more efficient and more effective). So unless you have a different definition I don't see how you can continue to argue your particular position.

I recently became aware of an idea referred to as Cognitive Dissonance. This seems to explain your obstinance towards new ideas (quite well actually).

Yup. That would be nice to see. Unfortunately, I dont think we'll ever see it though.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Robert- You say that you're still waiting for explainations, methods, and ways that things have changed. Well, many people have given ways. Unfortunately, you dont seem to like them very much. Anytime someone talks about a different way of training, your typical response is, "Well, its already in there. We already do it."

I agree with KY. I'd like to see YOUR defination of these things. You always say that you're waiting, and then people do give something and all you do is comment of that, but fail to give your own explainations.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Nope, not even close. What I said--if you'll go back and put the quote in context--was that as described, as described, the Gracie book only had cliches I've heard more than many times to offer. What I said no to was the notion that generalization equals innovation. I'm also saying no to a lot of the excessively-macho attitudes in regard to "combat." And I'll bet you a shiny nickel that I've read as much about other martial arts styles, and ma philosophy in general, as you have. It's part of the reason I am less than convinced by these general claims about INNOVATION! EVOLUTION!!

Well Robert, I went back and looked at that post OFK was talking about, and regardless of what you say, the fact of the matter is, is that ANYONE looking at it, would probably be able to tell that it sounded like you had a VERY negative attitude about the book. Nobody can read your mind and know exactly what it was that you were talking about, or what you really meant.

And, as I've said MANY times before, we all train for different reasons. You obviously have NO interesting in fighting, though, any time you need to defend yourself, you'll be fighting, so I've yet to understand your thinking on that one.

I'm still waiting to hear specifics. And I'm dying to hear how my elevating Mr. Parker to godhood could possibly mean a rejection of, "concepts and principles," a phrase which--last time I checked--is straight out of Mr. Parker's books.

And we're all still waiting for YOUR specifics. Of course, I'm sure you'll say something like, "I've already posted them." Well, if thats the case, please post them again, because I dont remember reading any.

Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

My specifics? Got 'em right below my feet, as I write: the LTKKA Accumulative Journal. And the forms. And the sets. And the basics. And some years (not that many, really) of mat time. And a fair amount of reading. But all that isn't summarizable in a few snappy phrases.

Since we've again regressed to ad hominem arguments, reductionist claims that I must have meant things I didn't say, and the general assertion that You Pointy-Head Liberal Intellectuals, yew always tear down but you never biuld up, and since I cannot get you to actually read what I'm writing, let me simply exacerbate the situation:

1. I am perfectly willing to accept change and innovation. I am simply waiting to see it.

2. Much of what y'all are kvetching about speaks for a general binarism in Parker's kenpo, which a) claims to be absolutely innovative and radical, b) constantly insists upon arriving where it's going by traditional means.

3. The claims about "fighting," speak to something essential in martial arts, of course. They also come out of male fantasy.

4. The, "innovators," have just as many cliches and shibboleths as anybody else. They are just as stubbornly unwilling to examine those cliches and shibboleths as anyone else.

5. Most of the talk about evolution and innovation is advertising, and comes out of a consumerist culture/capitalist economy.

6. This "efficiency," claptrap comes out of a generalized, histocial and culturally localizable, fantasy about skipping blithely over the necessity of long slow work. Similarly, in one of my home towns, Boulder, Colorado, some folks teach a Buddhism without the necessity of meditation, "right living," or surrender of desires.

7. "Cognitive dissonance." Wow. Takes me back to Peter Ossorio's psychopathology classes. In 1978. But hey, thanks for the brand new insight. Interestingly enough, Ossorio had this whole thing about structuralist understanding of the psyche...a little like Lacan, a little like Mr. Parker's system.

8. I don't have to argue about what evolution is, because I never claimed to be the Next Big Wave, or even to be standing next to it. I wrote that I didn't know what it would look like, and doubted that the times had occasioned "evolution," in the martial arts just yet, and noted that force-growing such evolution was not going to work.

9. Still waiting to read what this innovation is. Still haven't seen anything brand new. Still noting a lot of, "your doubt is disturbing the psychic continuum," responses.

10. Still believing in individual evolution in the martial arts, won through hard practice. Still suspect this can happen with any half-way good martial arts system, let alone something as good as kenpo, or judo, or solid aikido, or one of the others. Still don't believe in short-cuts.

 

[MJS]

My specifics? Got 'em right below my feet, as I write: the LTKKA Accumulative Journal. And the forms. And the sets. And the basics. And some years (not that many, really) of mat time. And a fair amount of reading. But all that isn't summarizable in a few snappy phrases.

Since we've again regressed to ad hominem arguments, reductionist claims that I must have meant things I didn't say, and the general assertion that You Pointy-Head Liberal Intellectuals, yew always tear down but you never biuld up, and since I cannot get you to actually read what I'm writing, let me simply exacerbate the situation:

1. I am perfectly willing to accept change and innovation. I am simply waiting to see it.

You're willing to accept change? Ooooook. Were your eyes closed, because we've talked about how many arts have changed.

2. Much of what y'all are kvetching about speaks for a general binarism in Parker's kenpo, which a) claims to be absolutely innovative and radical, b) constantly insists upon arriving where it's going by traditional means.

But tradition isnt the only road to take.

3. The claims about "fighting," speak to something essential in martial arts, of course. They also come out of male fantasy.

No fantasy, just a reality. OMG, I said that evil word 'reality' again. Fighting is no different than defending yourself. Question for you Robert. If you needed to, wouldnt you want to be able to defend yourself, using the very skills that you've studied for all those years? I sure know that is what I want.

4. The, "innovators," have just as many cliches and shibboleths as anybody else. They are just as stubbornly unwilling to examine those cliches and shibboleths as anyone else.

Not 100% true. Most people who have made those changes probably made them after comparing what worked and what didnt. Look at BJJ. They added more punching skills to their art, cuz the realized that in order to be complete...OMG, I said another evil word..You need to be able to punch. How many Kenpoists do you hear say that they need to add grappling to their art? Not many.

5. Most of the talk about evolution and innovation is advertising, and comes out of a consumerist culture/capitalist economy.

So is this saying that anyone who advertises is wrong? Dude, things change. Its a fact of life. People are always improving things. I use the example of cars, medicine, etc. Many improvements to cars in 2004 than in 1980.

6. This "efficiency," claptrap comes out of a generalized, histocial and culturally localizable, fantasy about skipping blithely over the necessity of long slow work. Similarly, in one of my home towns, Boulder, Colorado, some folks teach a Buddhism without the necessity of meditation, "right living," or surrender of desires.

LLLoooooooooooooooooooooooong and SSSSSSllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwww!LOL! Question- Why does one have to spend 20 yrs in order to A) Be capable of defending one self, B) Have an understanding of what it is that they are doing?

7. "Cognitive dissonance." Wow. Takes me back to Peter Ossorio's psychopathology classes. In 1978. But hey, thanks for the brand new insight. Interestingly enough, Ossorio had this whole thing about structuralist understanding of the psyche...a little like Lacan, a little like Mr. Parker's system.

ok

8. I don't have to argue about what evolution is, because I never claimed to be the Next Big Wave, or even to be standing next to it. I wrote that I didn't know what it would look like, and doubted that the times had occasioned "evolution," in the martial arts just yet, and noted that force-growing such evolution was not going to work.

And I say again for the.......well, I lost count of how many times Ive said it....we all train for different reasons.

9. Still waiting to read what this innovation is. Still haven't seen anything brand new. Still noting a lot of, "your doubt is disturbing the psychic continuum," responses.

Well, you'll probably never see it because you dont have any windows in that box that surrounds you.

10. Still believing in individual evolution in the martial arts, won through hard practice. Still suspect this can happen with any half-way good martial arts system, let alone something as good as kenpo, or judo, or solid aikido, or one of the others. Still don't believe in short-cuts.

You're right with the first part of that, but dead wrong on the second, talking about short cuts. Again, I go back to having to wait 20yrs for what????

Mike

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Robert:

I will offer you a specific, sans ad hominem. (aside, have read Darwin, Kuhn, Popper, etc.)

American Kenpo, referring specifically to the body of information left behind by SGM EKP and sanctioned by the IKKA prior to his death, did not -- in my own opinion -- deal with grappling or ground fighting issues sufficiently. If this were true...which for me it is, but does not have to be for you...the eclectic approach used by Mr. Parker throughout his life would dictate that kenpoistas 1) locate exemplars of the key components of effective ground fighting, then 2) steal the information like raccoons at a campsite and incorporate it somewhere in the body of a future kenpo release (MS.AK 3.4?).

Another area I personally found lacking in my experiences with kenpo were sufficient exposure to joint manipulation (i.e., wristlocks, arms bars, and similar entanglements for upright combat). I took it upon myself to learn traditional Japanese jujutsu, Shorinji Kempo (the Dosshin So version that wear swastikas on their lapels), and Aikijujutsu, becaue they represented a specialized focus on the skill of appendage entanglement.

I now practice a Kenpo which includes the most logical additions from these systems (some of the wristlocks seem just plain silly). I also include in MY kenpo the fundamentals of BJJ, because, based on my own combat experiences in multiple no-rules challanges matches and hundreds of altercations as a bouncer, I found it combined quite nicely with Kenpo and Judo for a more comprehensive approach to personal combat.

Please note: I am not selling anything. I don't have a school, a tape series, and only teach a small band of students...FOR FREE, so the Marketing dog don't hunt here. I have made these changes because, between 1971 and 1990, I did not see in kenpo the resources necessary to adequately address what I percieved as systematic deficits. While you have the LTKKA binder under your feet, I have an old copy of the IKKA manual in my closet, on the shelf, dog-eared and tired pages highlighted and footnoted from years of study and exploration. I also have the Training Journals from people who broke away from kenpo over the years, some for financial and selfish reasons, some to make what they percieved as needed changes.

Am I anti-kenpo? Anti-Parker? I placed some plumeria and gardenia on his plot today, wishing I had a chance to say good-bye, as he passed while I was in Europe...fighting challenge matches and under-ground NHB bare-knuckle bouts, using Kenpo and kickboxing while standing, BJJ and Judo in a clinch, and grappling on the ground if it went that far. They complemented each other in application quite nicely. And having trained in each solidly over the years, I can tell you that a palm-heel take down does NOT have the same effect as an osoto-guruma, even though they fundamentally look the same, and both employ entangling legs accross the body, reaching to the contralateral side and levering the upper body of the opponent over the entangling leg.

I shared these observations with Mr. Parker. I spoke with him specifically about creating a series of extensions ending standard kenpo teks with Judo throws, leading into BJJ positions and transitions to finishing holds. He said, even then, that it would cause such a wave of protest, but thought the idea interesting. NOTE: I'm not saying I had his blessing to re-write kenpo, or that he ever intended to based on my ideas...most of our discussions were about NLP and mental precursors to physical performance. Putting that out there so no one accuses me of trying to bill the inside scoop on this.

IN MY MIND, innovation is making additive changes to a system that complement the existing structure of it, in oprder to enhance its application accross a broader range of circumstances. That is what I've done, that is what I advocate, and you may now feel free to blast away about binary silly-isms. I'm gonna go get a kiss from my girlfriend.

Regards,

Dr. Dave

 

[Les]

How did this thread change into a previous thread?

Was it evolution, or regression? Or just someone grabbing the excuse to 'knock' something they have not experienced?

Maybe Robert is right, and all our innovations and evolution are just smoke in the wind. Perhaps I don't move any better than I used to before I was given a greater understanding of timing, through the 'new' methods intrduced by my Instructor's and mentors in the Kenpo world. Not just AKKI people, but other 'innovators' from other organisations too.

I may have to re-think my whole future in Kenpo :idunno:

I'll get down to that right after I've re-installed Windows95 and changed the oil in my Ford Model T.

Les

 

[Les]

I may have to re-think my whole future in Kenpo :idunno:

I'll get down to that right after I've re-installed Windows95 and changed the oil in my Ford Model T.

Les

OK. It didn't take me long to think it through.

1: The Kenpo System can never be complete.

2: The innovation and evolution I have been exposed to is both real and beneficial.

3: I'm not going to re-install Windows95. Windows has been subjected to innovation and evolution, and while XP might not suit everyone, it has advantages in todays world.

4: I haven't really got a Ford Model T. My tastes in motor vehicles have been subjected to innovation and evolution.

There are three kinds of people in Kenpo;

Those who MAKE things happen.

Those who WATCH things happen.

Those who say WHAT HAPPENED?

Les

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, I waited a while to look at this thread again because I was beginning to get a little pissed off about the personal attacks. Now, I can look at them as the symptoms they are...rhapsodizing about Mr. Parker's grave? All this yelling and distorting of what I actually wrote, which had nothing whatsoever to do with asserting that anybody's practice is, "smoke in the wind?" (Except perhaps my own...) C'mahn...

It's remarkable that there are all these remarks about my invalidating anybody's kenpo practice, or the things they worked on so hard, or their discoveries. Nothing could be further from the truth; if you'll go back and actually READ what I wrote, you'll see that again and again and again, I've supported all that.

I still simply don't see anything mentioned that's not already, "in," (why's that in quotes? go read the "Structure, Sign and Play," essay I recommended) the system I learned. The takedowns? Sorry, they're there, not my fault. But maybe it's just me that calls it the "universal," pattern. And let me repeat: it's my suspicion that everything, "in," kenpo can be arrived at through other good, solid martial arts--with a helluva lot of practice, and more talent than I have.

I'm certainly no expert on wristlocks (or anything else in kenpo), but I did spend an appreciable portion of last Saturday dancing students around the mat with the locks in Gift of Destiny. I've also seen, and tried, folks' suprerior understanding of the range of locks/sequence of locks that the set of Gift techniques teach. If somebody needs to go, "outside," to find them, who would I be to say that's invalid? Are there locks "out," there that I never heard of, and likely never will? I dunno, but my guess is yes.

Why do martial arts take so long? Well, because that's how long they take for most of us. If you're what Bruce Lee was all cracked up to be (and personally, I don't think he was), why then, you can get by faster than I do. And than most others can. Sorry, but you can tell me 'bout NLP and timing drills and this discovery and that, "new," discovery 'till the cows get up and do kata, and I still wonder about hucksterism. And before y'all wind up, I simply wonder. I have no idea what exactly y'all are learning or doing.

Which (for about the five-thousandth time!) is not to say that there can't be innovations. Of course there can. Hell, if you'll go back and READ, I remarked that the Next Big Thing may be out there now, and I hope it's a girl.

I am actually arguing something pretty simple. Innovations and discoveries in martial arts come out of changes in cultural and historical circumstances. And, you cannot force-feed them any more than you can decide to go out and be Shakespeare. If you disagree with that, OK, cool, your privilege and right and reason. But just because you happen to be unwilling to discuss ideas without launching personal attacks and putting down other people's ideas and practices, that doesn't mean that that's what I'm doing.

The real argument here is over "individualist," vs. "cultural/historical construction," theories of what causes development in the martial arts, or, "evolutions," if you prefer.

One thing that made Mr. Parker possible was the spreading of Eastern martial arts into Western culture. Another was the everting of the family and clan and community structures in which so much of Eastern arts had been cooking. Anybody got any comparable events they can mention, rather than yelling at me because I don't see things the same way you do?

 

[Kenpomachine]

If I'd believe so, I should also believe that it is dead... and I don't think so.

About the evolution you're all arguing about, I'll add my two cents: kenpo would evolve as an art as outstanding people work dissecting what is already there and get it to a new level. That may be by looking for why a certain thing work a certain way and not other, but may also be by *Discovering* something that is already there, right in front of us. Think about penicilin and Pasteur. But then, there has to be a great communicator to convey and spread such information to the rest of the people. Let's not forget what happened with Sony Beta Cam, that being better than VHS didn't spread as much, due to Sony's fear of copying.

My point is, I can evolve within kenpo, but for kenpo to evolve as well there are too many variables (historical/cultural/personal/whatever).

But we can't forget past mistakes if we want to avoid them in the future. And traditions are a big point of reference to begin asking questions. Moreover, TRADITIONS MUST BE CHALLENGED, but not for the shake of the challenge itself, but to get something better. And that needs a lot of effort and knowledge and work and time and reasoning and inner circunspection. That's why you need years to master and art, but not so many to begin defending yourself.

 

[Les]

Well, I waited a while to look at this thread again because I was beginning to get a little pissed off about the personal attacks.

Robert, please don't think I'm making a personal attack on you. What I actually wrote was "Maybe Robert is right"

The real argument here is over "individualist," vs. "cultural/historical construction," theories of what causes development in the martial arts, or, "evolutions," if you prefer.

I really thought the discussion, (not arguement) here was supposed to be Do you believe EPAK was finally complete?

One thing that made Mr. Parker possible was the spreading of Eastern martial arts into Western culture.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

yelling at me because I don't see things the same way you do?

NOBODY should be yelling at anyone for having a different viewpoint. I certainly didn't intend to give the impression I was yelling.

With Respect

Les

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I don't remember yelling. And I thought I went out of my way to avoid attacking you, Robert. Rather, I mentioned my own perceptions and chnages, based on my own experience. I'm glad you got them dancing with Gift: I, in my own personal sojourns to kenpo schools accross the southwest, have been to more than one where the instructors themselves...most listed right on the IKKA family tree...had no idea how to place a person in the holds they were teaching SD teks against (chicken wing, front wristlock, etc.). I've also seen otherwise excellent kenpo yudansha (pardon the eastern words...I'll try to work on that for you) fall apart on the armbar in Crossing Talons with just the slightest bit of resistance from the uke. Training the crap out of similar joint techniques in Shorinji, I've used that exact armbar against unwilling antagonists who resisted vigorously, dropping their face to the cement, then leading them out of the establishment. I already posted about the guy teaching Captured Leaves who had no idea about how anyone would ever find themselves in this situation. If you've got a grip on jointlocks in your kenpo, more power to you. Yeah, the motions and tweaks can be found in the universal pattern...that's why it's called the UNIVERSAL pattern, anmd not the PARTIAL pattern. Does that mean kenpo specifically addresses each and every possibility within it? If it did, there would only be one martial art in all the world, and it would be kenpo.

Hucksterism...hmm. Seems a little provocative for a person bemoaning the use of attacks. Stay with kenpo only. You seem to be happy in it. I started the thread to poll the community as to whetehr the overarching impression of kenpo was that it was a done deal; that Parker had considered it a work, complete. So far, I don't think anyone has argued that it was meant to be left right where it was, just as it was at the time of EP's passing. And I never meant to imply that innovations had to be mine to be valid. Again, I made mine based on my personal experiences...only hungry peopel search for food. If you're happy, awesome. I was not, so I looked to other resources. And the "rhapsodizing" about Mr Parkers site was not to be melodramatic, and seems to me like a cheap shot for making your point. I genuinely admire the man, still, and consider him the standard of measurement for succes not only in the MA, but in life as a mensch. He was genuinely kind; had opinions of his own which he decided sometimes to share and sometimes not; worked dilligently for his place in life; and I pay my respects to his interment on or near the anniversaries of his coming and going (it's not like a trip to mecca...I live around the corner). As a kid in Hawaii, I was exposed to - and embraced - the Shinto idea that the spirits of ancestors, friends, acquaintences, remain active influences in our lives after passing. Not a good Western or scientific belief, but I'm not convinced Western philosophy, science, or religion for that matter are worth the paper written on.

I think it's great you don't agree, and I am more than happy to embrace your right to believe I'm wrong. But for shytes sake, be nice. You're going to blow a gaskette. I want you around years from now to argue with about the existence or non-existence of, need for or non-need for, evolution/innovation/change in kenpo. Maybe it's the beer or fatigue speaking, but dude...you.must.chill.out.

I tried very hard to remain appropriate and non-aggressive in my posting. Allow me to invite you to do the same. I'm still waiting to hear your positions expressed proactively, instead of reactively. And I sincerely hope you're right about the next great influence in kenpo. It would be cool to say when I'm gray that I used to fence with her pops on the web when she was knee-high to a grass-hopper.

Till next time, kids:

D.

PS -- can't find the essay you posted. Interested in reading it so can reference same page, so to speak.

 

[MJS]

I don't remember yelling. And I thought I went out of my way to avoid attacking you, Robert. Rather, I mentioned my own perceptions and chnages, based on my own experience. I'm glad you got them dancing with Gift: I, in my own personal sojourns to kenpo schools accross the southwest, have been to more than one where the instructors themselves...most listed right on the IKKA family tree...had no idea how to place a person in the holds they were teaching SD teks against (chicken wing, front wristlock, etc.). I've also seen otherwise excellent kenpo yudansha (pardon the eastern words...I'll try to work on that for you) fall apart on the armbar in Crossing Talons with just the slightest bit of resistance from the uke. Training the crap out of similar joint techniques in Shorinji, I've used that exact armbar against unwilling antagonists who resisted vigorously, dropping their face to the cement, then leading them out of the establishment. I already posted about the guy teaching Captured Leaves who had no idea about how anyone would ever find themselves in this situation. If you've got a grip on jointlocks in your kenpo, more power to you. Yeah, the motions and tweaks can be found in the universal pattern...that's why it's called the UNIVERSAL pattern, anmd not the PARTIAL pattern. Does that mean kenpo specifically addresses each and every possibility within it? If it did, there would only be one martial art in all the world, and it would be kenpo.

Hucksterism...hmm. Seems a little provocative for a person bemoaning the use of attacks. Stay with kenpo only. You seem to be happy in it. I started the thread to poll the community as to whetehr the overarching impression of kenpo was that it was a done deal; that Parker had considered it a work, complete. So far, I don't think anyone has argued that it was meant to be left right where it was, just as it was at the time of EP's passing. And I never meant to imply that innovations had to be mine to be valid. Again, I made mine based on my personal experiences...only hungry peopel search for food. If you're happy, awesome. I was not, so I looked to other resources. And the "rhapsodizing" about Mr Parkers site was not to be melodramatic, and seems to me like a cheap shot for making your point. I genuinely admire the man, still, and consider him the standard of measurement for succes not only in the MA, but in life as a mensch. He was genuinely kind; had opinions of his own which he decided sometimes to share and sometimes not; worked dilligently for his place in life; and I pay my respects to his interment on or near the anniversaries of his coming and going (it's not like a trip to mecca...I live around the corner). As a kid in Hawaii, I was exposed to - and embraced - the Shinto idea that the spirits of ancestors, friends, acquaintences, remain active influences in our lives after passing. Not a good Western or scientific belief, but I'm not convinced Western philosophy, science, or religion for that matter are worth the paper written on.

I think it's great you don't agree, and I am more than happy to embrace your right to believe I'm wrong. But for shytes sake, be nice. You're going to blow a gaskette. I want you around years from now to argue with about the existence or non-existence of, need for or non-need for, evolution/innovation/change in kenpo. Maybe it's the beer or fatigue speaking, but dude...you.must.chill.out.

I tried very hard to remain appropriate and non-aggressive in my posting. Allow me to invite you to do the same. I'm still waiting to hear your positions expressed proactively, instead of reactively. And I sincerely hope you're right about the next great influence in kenpo. It would be cool to say when I'm gray that I used to fence with her pops on the web when she was knee-high to a grass-hopper.

Till next time, kids:

D.

PS -- can't find the essay you posted. Interested in reading it so can reference same page, so to speak.

Very nice post! I agree with many parts here, especially the part when you talk about leaving Kenpo right where it was at the time of Parkers death. I'm sure that if he were still alive, that he himself would be making changes. What strikes me funny is that it seems like people get so pissed if others make changes, but they seem to forget two things. One, If Parker was alive he'd be making changes, and two, even when he was alive, he changed the way it was taught to him! So, basically its ok for one person to modify or make a change but not someone else? People tend to get into a rut and very set in the same routine over and over and over and over, and think that change is a bad thing....IT ISNT!!!! As I've said before, we all train for different reasons, and we all want to get different things out of the art that we train in. And if someone makes a change, who the hell cares! Is it hurting anyone? NO!

I could go on more, but why bother. There are some people that will still, no matter what, ALWAYS dissagree, due to being so stubborn.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Well, I waited a while to look at this thread again because I was beginning to get a little pissed off about the personal attacks. Now, I can look at them as the symptoms they are...rhapsodizing about Mr. Parker's grave? All this yelling and distorting of what I actually wrote, which had nothing whatsoever to do with asserting that anybody's practice is, "smoke in the wind?" (Except perhaps my own...) C'mahn...

Sorry you feel that way. I've been on the end of those attacks as well. Dont let it get ya down, just keep on going.

It's remarkable that there are all these remarks about my invalidating anybody's kenpo practice, or the things they worked on so hard, or their discoveries. Nothing could be further from the truth; if you'll go back and actually READ what I wrote, you'll see that again and again and again, I've supported all that.

Again, its hard sometimes to really read into what someone is typing. A little explaination goes a long way.

I still simply don't see anything mentioned that's not already, "in," (why's that in quotes? go read the "Structure, Sign and Play," essay I recommended) the system I learned. The takedowns? Sorry, they're there, not my fault. But maybe it's just me that calls it the "universal," pattern. And let me repeat: it's my suspicion that everything, "in," kenpo can be arrived at through other good, solid martial arts--with a helluva lot of practice, and more talent than I have.

Again, there are many things that are in many of the arts that are the same. But, if one wanted to look a little further into something, maybe, just maybe, they'd have to look elsewhere. Nothing wrong with that.

I'm certainly no expert on wristlocks (or anything else in kenpo), but I did spend an appreciable portion of last Saturday dancing students around the mat with the locks in Gift of Destiny. I've also seen, and tried, folks' suprerior understanding of the range of locks/sequence of locks that the set of Gift techniques teach. If somebody needs to go, "outside," to find them, who would I be to say that's invalid? Are there locks "out," there that I never heard of, and likely never will? I dunno, but my guess is yes.

And I'm not a master at them either.

Why do martial arts take so long? Well, because that's how long they take for most of us. If you're what Bruce Lee was all cracked up to be (and personally, I don't think he was), why then, you can get by faster than I do. And than most others can. Sorry, but you can tell me 'bout NLP and timing drills and this discovery and that, "new," discovery 'till the cows get up and do kata, and I still wonder about hucksterism. And before y'all wind up, I simply wonder. I have no idea what exactly y'all are learning or doing.

Sorry to hear that you feel so negative about Bruce Lee. I'm not an expert on him, but IMO, the man was very intelligent, had a good understanding of things, and produced many excellent MAs.

Which (for about the five-thousandth time!) is not to say that there can't be innovations. Of course there can. Hell, if you'll go back and READ, I remarked that the Next Big Thing may be out there now, and I hope it's a girl.

I am actually arguing something pretty simple. Innovations and discoveries in martial arts come out of changes in cultural and historical circumstances. And, you cannot force-feed them any more than you can decide to go out and be Shakespeare. If you disagree with that, OK, cool, your privilege and right and reason. But just because you happen to be unwilling to discuss ideas without launching personal attacks and putting down other people's ideas and practices, that doesn't mean that that's what I'm doing.

Sorry to say it Rob, but you have been one who gives those personal attacks as well. I've seen you question the training methods of others and then when they give an explaination, you come back with something negative. You'll probably deny that, but its the truth.

The real argument here is over "individualist," vs. "cultural/historical construction," theories of what causes development in the martial arts, or, "evolutions," if you prefer.

No, the argument here is about Kenpo and if it was complete. Its turning into a debate of how each ind. does his/her training.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Looks like this thread either died or someone got pi**** off.

Mike

 

[rschoon]

Maybe.....Mr. Parker took it to a certain level, then left it up to all of us to take it beyond that level???

I do feel that there has to be a certain amount of "adjustment" because I know that if one tech doesn't work for a person than we can adjust it so that it does and that if we have not only the basic principles and concepts of motion but the more advanced down as well, then that is innovation for the individual.

Some thoughts,
Rick

 

[Goldendragon7]

heee heee......

No, it certainly is not complete... realistic Arts usually aren't. Most people are having enough trouble trying to figure out what is actually available here already, much less being able to evaluate what can be expanded upon.... LOL
:asian:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Looks like this thread either died or someone got pi**** off.

Mike

Hope he comes back. Forums where everyone agrees on everything all the time kinda lack the interest factor. He made some good point, and I'm still trying to find the binary-thingy essay he keeps referring to.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

heee heee......

No, it certainly is not complete... realistic Arts usually aren't. Most people are having enough trouble trying to figure out what is actually available here already, much less being able to evaluate what can be expanded upon.... LOL
:asian:

Devilishly subtle.