Do you believe EPAK was finally complete?

[Doc]

Let's look at it this way. Ed Parker's Kenpo in any interpretation was not complete, however what most should be doing is trying to improve THEIR Kenpo, NOT Ed Parker's. Although we may all like to think differently the truth is most can't understand what they have, let alone improve it for someone else. Work on your kenpo and leave Parker's alone. And for the record Bruce was a physical specimen who trained like a mad man, but he was not very knowledgeable. He learned a great deal from Ed Parker, Gene LeBell, Wally Jay, Sea Oh Choi, and Danny Inosanto.

 

[Seig]

I think Mr. C and Doc summed it up nicely. This is the way I explain it to my students, "I am not Mr. Parker, I cannot be Mr. Parker, I do not want to be Mr. Parker. I am not Mr. C, I cannot be Mr. C, I do not want to be Mr. C. You are not me....."

Kenpo can only be as complete as the individual studying it.

 

[Zoran]

heee heee......

No, it certainly is not complete... realistic Arts usually aren't. Most people are having enough trouble trying to figure out what is actually available here already, much less being able to evaluate what can be expanded upon.... LOL
:asian:

Let's look at it this way. Ed Parker's Kenpo in any interpretation was not complete, however what most should be doing is trying to improve THEIR Kenpo, NOT Ed Parker's. Although we may all like to think differently the truth is most can't understand what they have, let alone improve it for someone else. Work on your kenpo and leave Parker's alone.

I think Mr. C and Doc summed it up nicely. This is the way I explain it to my students, "I am not Mr. Parker, I cannot be Mr. Parker, I do not want to be Mr. Parker. I am not Mr. C, I cannot be Mr. C, I do not want to be Mr. C. You are not me....."

Kenpo can only be as complete as the individual studying it.

Common sense? :erg:

Please don't mess up my stereo typing of AK practitioners as over complicating things.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Not all of us are lucky enough to have a "grandmaster" winking at us, with books ghost written by Senior Grandmasters, and telling us we are on the right track. Sometimes the study of another system is what opens doors where they were not accessible before. To use kenpo as an excuse to stop exploring and expanding does you a great disservice. Half the kenpoists out there stopped listening to Mr. Parker back in the seventies. I have no doubt that another half of the kenpoists he had, he would have lost once he announced his next change. Why seek when your local "grandmaster" has sought for you?
Sean :asian:

 

[MJS]

Not all of us are lucky enough to have a "grandmaster" winking at us, with books ghost written by Senior Grandmasters, and telling us we are on the right track. Sometimes the study of another system is what opens doors where they were not accessible before. To use kenpo as an excuse to stop exploring and expanding does you a great disservice. Half the kenpoists out there stopped listening to Mr. Parker back in the seventies. I have no doubt that another half of the kenpoists he had, he would have lost once he announced his next change. Why seek when your local "grandmaster" has sought for you?
Sean :asian:

Yes, Thank you!! My thoughts exactly. There are some people who dont live close to a Senior, so we pretty much have to go with the hand that was dealt to us. Faulting someone because they dont have that option, or because we might look elsewhere to supplement what we dont have is also wrong.

Mike

 

[Goldendragon7]

Faulting someone because because we might look elsewhere to supplement what we don't have is also wrong. Mike

Who said that?

:asian:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Who said that?

:asian:

I think his name was...oh I'd better just not say anything.

 

[MJS]

Who said that?

:asian:

Not in those exact words, but it was hinted at. Look at some of the past posts. I've talked for how long now about the importance of stand up guys learning about the ground. My answer- "Why do you need to crosstrain when its already in there?"

Mike

 

[MJS]

I think his name was...oh I'd better just not say anything.

:boing2: :boing2: :boing2:

Mike

 

[Seig]

Yes, Thank you!! My thoughts exactly. There are some people who dont live close to a Senior, so we pretty much have to go with the hand that was dealt to us. Faulting someone because they dont have that option, or because we might look elsewhere to supplement what we dont have is also wrong.

Mike

Sorry, I have to take issue with this. I do not live within reasonable distance of my instructor. Not only did I seek him out, I went to considerable effort to not only bring him to me, but to do so on a regular basis. With the electronic age such as it is, there is no reason other than time that I cannot learn something from him everyday. Statements like, no one is close are no longer viable.

 

[rmcrobertson]

It's also worth considering the notion that after a certain point--fourth/fifth degree, say, after around twenty years in--we might oughta consider easing off on blaming the system, or our instructors, for our own lack of imagination and faith (there's an oxymoron to contemplate), or our own inertia and unwillingness to open up, or own own fetishization and pomposity...

Thank goodness I'm not there yet. Otherwise, I'd be forced to examine myself--which, I'd thought, was a big chunk of what martial arts were all about.

Oh well. Could be worse...could be English teachers. "The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves/That we be slaves..."

Hm.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

It's also worth considering the notion that after a certain point--fourth/fifth degree, say, after around twenty years in--we might oughta consider easing off on blaming the system, or our instructors, for our own lack of imagination and faith (there's an oxymoron to contemplate), or our own inertia and unwillingness to open up, or own own fetishization and pomposity...

Hey Pot, the Kettle just called and he has something he wants to tell you!!!

I would move it up to after 1st degree because after your first things get a little more wishy washy as to who knows how or what. I was under the impression that you were the one who was unwilling to be open to outside ideas. You also seem obsessed with the evils of binary systems. Sure life isn't always that simple, but in alot of cases things can get widdled down to left or right, up or down, hot or cold, black or white, and traditional or non-traditional. I admit that their are times when things might be right in the middle, luke warm, or gray, but this isn't always the case. You talk about how people are pompous and unwilling to open up, yet you have never even stepped out to see what else is around.

Thank goodness I'm not there yet. Otherwise, I'd be forced to examine myself--which, I'd thought, was a big chunk of what martial arts were all about.

That's funny I thought the martial arts were primarily a way to relay methods of self-defense, i.e. to teach you how to fight. Sure I have several good friends I met in the MA's, and learned a little about life by seeing and helping people get through some akward and tough times. Sure, I get a decent workout when I train, but I started the MA's to learn to fight and I am still motivated by this factor. If I wanted to be introspective I would have taken a bunch of philosophy courses. I should also point out that some of the worst people I have ever met were affiliated, in some fashion, with the Martial arts.

Robert, I don't know you from Adam, but you kinda strike me as some old fuddy-duddy grandpa who doesn't want to use the new fang-dangled CD player because he would rather listen to his records. This in itself isn't all that bad, but just because you like your record player doesn't mean that the CD player doesn't offer better sound quality.

 

[Doc]

Hey lighten up on the "fuddie duddie granpa's. I have an extensive collection of vinyl records with a turntable, and a bunch of CD's as well thank you. %-}

 

[MJS]

Sorry, I have to take issue with this. I do not live within reasonable distance of my instructor. Not only did I seek him out, I went to considerable effort to not only bring him to me, but to do so on a regular basis. With the electronic age such as it is, there is no reason other than time that I cannot learn something from him everyday. Statements like, no one is close are no longer viable.

And that is your choice to do. Again, just because one is able to do it, does not mean that everyone can.

Mike

 

[MJS]

It's also worth considering the notion that after a certain point--fourth/fifth degree, say, after around twenty years in--we might oughta consider easing off on blaming the system, or our instructors, for our own lack of imagination and faith (there's an oxymoron to contemplate), or our own inertia and unwillingness to open up, or own own fetishization and pomposity...[q/quote]

Speaking of opening up, you dont seem to open on learning other things Robert.

Again, I cant help the fact that I dont live in Cali.

Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

Hm. Yep, well, pretty much what I wrote last time. I guess I'd be more receptive if what it's claimed I think were actually what I'm thinking, but no real point in writing anything else in the face of such...analysis.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

So, now that we are all pretty much disgusted with each other and done talking...I will take the opportunity to summarize the arguments:

Those who believe EPAK was not complete do so for one or more of the following reasons:
* Didn't have access to a top-notch EPAK teacher
* Study EPAK under a top-notch teacher who thought that Mr. Parker was going to make some changes (like a 16 tech curriculum, more knife fighting, etc.)
* Study EPAK under a top-notch teacher who wants to emphasize/develop some additional and/or different concepts, techniques, or training methods.
* Have been exposed to one or more styles that has something that they had not previously discovered in EPAK or that might actually possibly not already be in EPAK.
* They are now stick-fighters or grapplers spending all their money on UFC Pay-Per-Views and Jiu-Jitsu Instructional videos who can't clearly articulate Kenpo concepts.

Those who believe EPAK is complete do so for one or more of the following reasons:
* They have access to a top-notch EPAK teacher
* Study EPAK under a top-notch teacher who thought that Mr. Parker would never make any changes to anything ever again.
* Study EPAK under a teacher who spent a lot of time with Mr. Parker and is working valiantly to teach exactly what he was taught.
* Have not been exposed to any other styles in enough depth to discover anything that might actually possibly not already be in EPAK.
* They are now patch-wearing chest-slapping black-gi-wearing hand-over-fist-saluting "oss"-saying Kenpoists pursuing the lifelong path to Kenpo completeness.

Did I miss anything? Will you flame me for this? Will you add to or subtract from my reputation points? Or has everyone crossed their arms and turned their backs on this intruguing but ultimately unanswerable question?

 

[MJS]

Hm. Yep, well, pretty much what I wrote last time. I guess I'd be more receptive if what it's claimed I think were actually what I'm thinking, but no real point in writing anything else in the face of such...analysis.

What are you talking about Robert? My point is, is that regardless of if you've been in the art for 10 yrs or 20 yrs. the fact remains that some people have noticed something lacking. If you havent, thats fine, but dont assume that just cuz you train with Larry and dont seem to see any problems, that there really are none.

Mike

 

[MJS]

So, now that we are all pretty much disgusted with each other and done talking...I will take the opportunity to summarize the arguments:

Those who believe EPAK was not complete do so for one or more of the following reasons:
* Didn't have access to a top-notch EPAK teacher
* Study EPAK under a top-notch teacher who thought that Mr. Parker was going to make some changes (like a 16 tech curriculum, more knife fighting, etc.)
* Study EPAK under a top-notch teacher who wants to emphasize/develop some additional and/or different concepts, techniques, or training methods.
* Have been exposed to one or more styles that has something that they had not previously discovered in EPAK or that might actually possibly not already be in EPAK.
* They are now stick-fighters or grapplers spending all their money on UFC Pay-Per-Views and Jiu-Jitsu Instructional videos who can't clearly articulate Kenpo concepts.

Those who believe EPAK is complete do so for one or more of the following reasons:
* They have access to a top-notch EPAK teacher
* Study EPAK under a top-notch teacher who thought that Mr. Parker would never make any changes to anything ever again.
* Study EPAK under a teacher who spent a lot of time with Mr. Parker and is working valiantly to teach exactly what he was taught.
* Have not been exposed to any other styles in enough depth to discover anything that might actually possibly not already be in EPAK.
* They are now patch-wearing chest-slapping black-gi-wearing hand-over-fist-saluting "oss"-saying Kenpoists pursuing the lifelong path to Kenpo completeness.

Did I miss anything? Will you flame me for this? Will you add to or subtract from my reputation points? Or has everyone crossed their arms and turned their backs on this intruguing but ultimately unanswerable question?

Looks good to me!!!

Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

The question is unanswerable--and leads to these same ratholes again and again--because it isn't a very good question. In other words, the way it's phrased, as a simple, "either/or," choice, makes it impossible to usefully discuss the matter.

In other other words, its construction as a binary opposition--a set of false alternatives, for those of you who like considering rhetorical means--guarantees that nothing is going to get said after a while: it's a dead end.

I simply don't see this as a matter of, "tradition," (dead or otherwise) vs. "innovation," (crappy or otherwise), however insistent others may be on such a construction.

More meaningful questions would include:

What are the origins of these ideas about, "tradition," and. "innovation?"
How do tradition-and-innovation function as advertising slogans in the martial arts?
To what extent has kenpo attempted to institutionalize, "innovation?" as a sort of martial arts, "permanent revolution?"
In what places, and to what purposes, do temrs such as, "tradition," and, "innovation," circulate most prominently?
How does tradition figure into innovation? How does innovation work within so-called tradition?
What is the role of the individual unconscious and its resistances to knowledge in the martial arts, and to what extent do these resistances crystallize around terms such as, "tradition," and "innovation?"
How does the figure of Mr. Parker get emplaced and circulated in contemporary discussions of martial arts?
To what extent does this sort of, "trad v. rad," discussion impose a structure of male fantasy upon the actual history of martial arts?