Do you believe EPAK was finally complete?

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Mr. Parker was constantly modifying and changing the technical cirriculum for kenpo, his active mind always looking for deeper and more multiplicated applications of techniques.

Some of the old break-aways even quoted their reasosn for leaving as "I didn't want to re-learn the entire systems requirements for the third time", and the like.

I've seen comments in threads where folks insist that a lack of absolute faith in EPAK to have all the answers reflects a lack of understanding the depths of kenpo. IMHO, this reflects a blind faith that SGM had created a final, perfect product, with no room for change or improvement. I believe...and I have no hard evidence to back it up, just my own views...that if Mr. Parker had not been taken so soon, we would have seen one, maybe two more "re-writes" of kenpo before simple aging returned him to the stars.

Was denkst du? Is kenpo a perfect, finished product? Had SGM Parker reached the limits of his creative and rational abilities with the "final edit" of AK we were left with?

Dr. Dave

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Great minds think alike...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8597

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Great minds think alike...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8597

Right on. Glad to know I'm not the only heretic in the inquisition.

 

[Doc]

Mr. Parker was constantly modifying and changing the technical cirriculum for kenpo, his active mind always looking for deeper and more multiplicated applications of techniques.

Some of the old break-aways even quoted their reasosn for leaving as "I didn't want to re-learn the entire systems requirements for the third time", and the like.

I've seen comments in threads where folks insist that a lack of absolute faith in EPAK to have all the answers reflects a lack of understanding the depths of kenpo. IMHO, this reflects a blind faith that SGM had created a final, perfect product, with no room for change or improvement. I believe...and I have no hard evidence to back it up, just my own views...that if Mr. Parker had not been taken so soon, we would have seen one, maybe two more "re-writes" of kenpo before simple aging returned him to the stars.

Was denkst du? Is kenpo a perfect, finished product? Had SGM Parker reached the limits of his creative and rational abilities with the "final edit" of AK we were left with?

Dr. Dave

We must stop talking as if "kenpo" is this single defineable entity that is the same for everyone. It has not ever been the same for everyone, It is not the same for everyone, and never will be the same for everyone. The gene pool is deluted by the commercial version that is purely conceptional, leaving it wide open for as many interpretations as there are students - as intended by Parker for that particular vehicle.

That being said - in answer to your question, not even close. Not even the same solar system close.

 

[Les]

Since Kenpo is a system designed and intended to be continually updated, how CAN we ever consider it complete? :idunno:

I'm not doing the same Kenpo I was five years ago, ten years ago etc. and I'm certainly not doing the same Kenpo I was when I started out with it in the 70's.

By the same token, I don't expect to be doing the same Kenpo in 5 years time, or 10 years time.

Les

 

[Shiatsu]

Well said Doc and Les :asian:

 

[MJS]

Mr. Parker was constantly modifying and changing the technical cirriculum for kenpo, his active mind always looking for deeper and more multiplicated applications of techniques.

Some of the old break-aways even quoted their reasosn for leaving as "I didn't want to re-learn the entire systems requirements for the third time", and the like.

I've seen comments in threads where folks insist that a lack of absolute faith in EPAK to have all the answers reflects a lack of understanding the depths of kenpo. IMHO, this reflects a blind faith that SGM had created a final, perfect product, with no room for change or improvement. I believe...and I have no hard evidence to back it up, just my own views...that if Mr. Parker had not been taken so soon, we would have seen one, maybe two more "re-writes" of kenpo before simple aging returned him to the stars.

Was denkst du? Is kenpo a perfect, finished product? Had SGM Parker reached the limits of his creative and rational abilities with the "final edit" of AK we were left with?

Dr. Dave

Very interesting post, and I'm more than sure it'll start some very interesting debates. I am big believer in always trying to better yourself. If that means crosstraining, taking up another art in addition to your base art, or whatever, then do it! What do you have to lose?? NOTHING!!!! I've had the chance to have a few very interesting chats with Clyde, and he has opened my eyes to many different things. After talking with him, I did realize that your Inst. or who you train under, does make a big difference. The unfortunate thing, is that not everyone can have the chance to train under someone like Larry Tatum, who was fortunate enough to spend many years with Master Parker.

I do believe though, that no matter what, there is always room to improve something. Even if the entire art is not changed, if you can do something, as I said above to better yourself, then why not do it?

I believe that if Parker was alive today, that, yes, there would be changes or additions made to the system.

Mike

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

There was a thread on the KenpoNet very recently about "What would you say to or ask Mr. Parker?" I think it is probably on page 2 or 3 now.

 

[rmcrobertson]

What I think, first, is that framing this question in terms of "complete," vs. "not-complete," is a complete dead end, just as I think this nonsense about, "innovators," vs. "traditionalists," is a complete dead end.

So far on any of these forums, I've seen absolutely nothing to indicate the slightest general evolution, innovation, progress or whatever in the system I've got some acquaintance with. All the "timing drills," "flow drills," "groundwork," etc., so far that I've seen, are simple adaptations/developments of what's already on the table.

Does this mean change is impossible. " Course not. For one thing, it's very clear that many people have personally developed--evolved, if you prefer--in remarkable ways. It's also pretty clear that a few people--far less than one might prefer, but a few--have developed as teachers beyond what Mr. Parker was able to do.

But real change in the system as a whole will have to wait for the next big accident. Forcing "it," to grow is about as useless as trying to grow your own Shakespeare at home...ain't gonna happen. And, it'll look just as silly as those
dances or martial arts of the future you sometimes see in science fiction--and for the same reason, too, it'll have no true ground in culture and history.

Mr. Parker was not only in some ways a brilliant martial artist, he "happened," to be born into a particular time and place that made certain things possible. When we get someone equally gifted, born into a new time and place that makes change possible (personally, I hope it's a girl...THAT'D piss off lots of kenpoistas), we'll get genuine innovation.

Until then, who cares? Lots of practice to do, lots of work-outs, lots to learn. I say, let the appearance of the Next Big Thing take care of itself...especially given the ego thing that rears whenever we see those declarations of the Next Great Leap Forward.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

When we get someone equally gifted, born into a new time and place that makes change possible (personally, I hope it's a girl...THAT'D piss off lots of kenpoistas), we'll get genuine innovation.

Until then, who cares? Lots of practice to do, lots of work-outs, lots to learn. I say, let the appearance of the Next Big Thing take care of itself...especially given the ego thing that rears whenever we see those declarations of the Next Great Leap Forward.

I think it's funny that the biggest traditionalist on the board, who is also one of the greatest opponents to change, is telling us about ego and how we should act.

So far on any of these forums, I've seen absolutely nothing to indicate the slightest general evolution, innovation, progress or whatever in the system I've got some acquaintance with. All the "timing drills," "flow drills," "groundwork," etc., so far that I've seen, are simple adaptations/developments of what's already on the table.

You apparently have your own definition of evolution, innovation, and progress. So why don't you share so we can all see what we are doing so wrong. Near as I can tell, there are a number of organizations that are innovating, evolving, and progressing the art of kenpo (i.e. through positive change).

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Robert, I was wondering how long before you subscribed to this thread...

OK, now...I'm not going to rehash all of our previous debates...

I am just going to say one thing...but it is rather long...and you might have to stretch to understand it.

It starts here: Mr. Parker was a revolutionary. EPAK was a fantastic innovation. But, should Kenpo freeze itself in 1990? Let me point to a historical precedent: the Hasidic Jews.

Did you know that the Hasidic movement was revolutionary in its day? That's right, those people we think of as self-segregating, close-minded, long-bearded, black-coated, dead-language-(Yiddish)-speaking religious fanatics were innovators.

The Hasidic movement was founded by Rabbi Israel ben Elizer (aka Baal Shem Tov) in the mid-1700's. Contemporary Jewish (and Catholic) worship focused around academic biblical study and the ritual observance of pre-set prayers. The Hasid's innovated by making worship a joyful participatory experience. The Hasids worshipped with song and celebrated the minutae of everyday living. They made Judaism accessible to the the common (Jewish) person.

And they dressed in the hippest most modern way. Think about it...mid 1700's...big white wigs, waist-coats with long tails, tight-white breaches, 3-corner hats. The Hasids wore pants, coats, and flat-brimmed hats--the 18th century equivalent of the zoot suit.

So how did they go from being hipsters to being the Jewish equivalent of an urban Amish? They fixated. They stuck on the Baal Shem Tov, froze in the mid-1700's, and refused to change.

Robert: Do you think Ed Parker wants Kenpo to become the martial arts equivalent of Hasidic Judaism?

 

[rmcrobertson]

Sorry, I was busy shaving my head and donning a wig.

Ah yes, the same sterile fantasy. I AM an innovator. Me evolutionary. You dead traditionalist. Looked up binary opposition yet? Let me refer you to Jacques Derrida, "Structure, Sign and Play in the Discourse of the Human Sciences," most easily available in his collection titled, "Writing and Difference."

I suepct that I have rather a better handle on evolution as a concept than y'all do. Y'all might want to read: a) Darwin, "Origin of Species and the Descent of Man," in order to understand what classical evolution means, then something like Stephen Jay Gould's "Wonderful Life," in order to get a bit of a handle on more-modern concepts; b) some of the cultural criticism by people like Frances Barker and Stephen Greenblatt to better understand "evolutionary," reformulations of fundamental concepts of the body in the Renaissance; c) various attempts to understand "radical," ideas in their cultural/historical context such as the old Kuhn book, "Structure of Scientific Revolutions," or something like Ian Watt on the rise of the novel and Lukacs on art in economic-historical context; d) some of the placements of martial arts as historical phenomena available in "Journal of Asian Martial Arts."

Yelling, IT'S NEW!! IT'S EVOLUTIONARY!! does not make it so, and curiously, nobody ever seems to both a) explain exactly what these Big Things are, and b) come up with stuff that I haven't already seen in one form or another.

Accusations about what you fantasize--and it is a fantasy for at least three major reasons--is my hide-bound traditionalism does not make it true, or invalidate my arguments--which I see you've once again avoided altogether, either with generalizations about the Hassids or ad hominem attacks.

It remains funny as hell that a couple of you cling so tightly to the notion that I'm some big traditionalist. Hell, I don't even see myself as KNOWING enough about tradition to hang onto it all that tightly. Or is it just that I have a certain faith in training and hard work (of which I don't do enough, I'm sorry to have to say), in part because I consider them a helluva lot more important than fretting over Who's Got The Biggest...ah, Innovation, or the ever-vital question of How Do I Get To the Top of the Big Kenpo Mountain?

You see me as a dead traditionalist. OK, nothing I can do about that. At the moment, I see your ideas (there's a difference there, incidentally) as derived entirely from a consumer culture that, as the true kenpo great Tom Waits noted, is always offering us something, "NEW!! ONLY A DOLLAR!!"

It's exactly analogous to all the folks I have to deal with who think PowerPoint and WebCT are NEW!! INNOVATIVE!!! EVOLUTIONARY!!!! teaching technologies that will obviate the necessity to siddown, read a book, actually learn something, and struggle to articulate what they've learned. What y'all really are talking about is doing away with practice. Funny how nxt, there erupt all the rhapsodies about the Good Old Days...themselves commodifiable.

Oh yeah...don't follow leaders...watch yer parking meters.

By the way, it's simple to refute all this. Leave the personalities out of it, and without using words like, "evolution," "creativity," "change," "leadership," and similar psychobabble, simply explain precisely what developments you have in mind that do so much more that the Parker system, whatever the hell that is. Just explain. Clearly, precisely. Just explain.

 

[Michael Billings]

Keep it polite guys.

-Michael

 

[pete]

great taste... less filling.
great taste... less filling.
great taste... less filling.
great taste... less filling.

either way: more beer! :cheers:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Okeedokee Robert.

Don't want to do a rehash. There is a pretty good thread on MartialTalk this week entitled "Sport vs Street ending the debate forever" which details most of the arguments people have been writing and you've been ignoring for the past year or so. :duel:

Haven't read some of the books you mentioned. I've read Darwin, I've read Kuhn. I am perplexed though that you are so smart, so intellectual, so well read, yet so reluctant to explore non-Kenpo martial arts ideas. :idunno:

Sliding dangously offtopic: I will take issue with your analysis about PowerPoint and the Web...I think these have an impact on our communication style that is more subtle--yet more pervasive--than you realize. Think about this...Microsoft's spell-check dictionary and thesaurus is now the most widely used source of English language spelling and definition. Good thing Bill Gates is not Hasidic.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Keep it polite guys.

We are, right?

 

[Shiatsu]

I only saw one person not being polite. You know the one who thinks kenpo is the end all martial art. Check out the thread that OFK was talking about.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Please show me where exactly it is, in anything I've written here at all, that I've refused to "think my way," through an idea. I simply don't think about them the way YOU do, and it appears to be easier for you to play j'accuse than to deal with the ideas. And, from time to time I get tired of these dumb personal judgments.

I agree with you about PowerPoint and the rest having an effect. I think the overall effect sucks, because I think it's just one more example of what Marx identified as Taylorization: the capitalism-driven push for more and more efficiency, less and less reward for workers.

Or to put it another way, I think of these NEW! and INNOVATIVE! kenpos as exactly analogous to what's going on in colleges and universities: part of a "two-tier," educational system in which the poor and the working class get empty fantasies of efficiencies, and the wealthy schools educate what amounts to the ruling class in the same old way.

I do not think for a minute that any real evolutions in kenpo, or anywhere else, will come from those proclaiming their evolutionariness. That's just marketing, nothing more. Of course, one of the dirty little secrets is the extent to which Mr. Parker was himself a magic marketer. (And don't comments like that just jibe perfectly with the notion that I'm just a kenpo worshipper?)

Fortunately, martial arts also make available a species of "personal," evolution that does not have to have anything to do with the market.

And again, I'm still waiting for exact descriptions of these NEW!! INNOVATIVE!!! EVOLUTIONARY!!! methods that aren't part of kenpo (whatever the hell THAT is) already. So far, whenever I've asked I get pretty much the routine that the Amazing Randi gets from your average cheezy psychic healer...up to and including, "your doubt and cynicism are obstructing the astral plane."

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Well, we do disagree. I think I have tried to explain ideas and differences in other arts. I've posted on training methods, on techniques, on the evolution of styles. But you've pooh-pooh'd it all. Others have done so as well.

On the KenpoNet a Kenpoist posted about Renzo Gracie's Mastering Jujitsu book and his theory on three phases of combat. You said

Ah says......that I agree, that the generalizations are easy and pretty much useless, and I have no interest in fighting.

Robert

In other words, you believe that principles and concepts are easy and pretty much useless, and you have no interest in applying them anyway. Right?

Did you get anything out of that book? Did you read it?

So let's say that Mr. Parker is the smartest Martial Artist who ever lived, or who ever will live. Does that mean that nobody else ever has or ever will add anything worthwhile to the martial arts?

 

[rmcrobertson]

Nope, not even close. What I said--if you'll go back and put the quote in context--was that as described, as described, the Gracie book only had cliches I've heard more than many times to offer. What I said no to was the notion that generalization equals innovation. I'm also saying no to a lot of the excessively-macho attitudes in regard to "combat." And I'll bet you a shiny nickel that I've read as much about other martial arts styles, and ma philosophy in general, as you have. It's part of the reason I am less than convinced by these general claims about INNOVATION! EVOLUTION!!

I'm still waiting to hear specifics. And I'm dying to hear how my elevating Mr. Parker to godhood could possibly mean a rejection of, "concepts and principles," a phrase which--last time I checked--is straight out of Mr. Parker's books.

I realize that it's easy to create these artificial oppositions. Not what I'm saying at all, as a re-read of my point about cultural and historical context should illustrate. Nor am I saying that I can actualize everything in kenpo, any more than you can. Nor am I arguing (or have ever argued) that Mr. Parker was the end of "evolution," in the martial arts. Quite the contrary, if you'll actually read what I've written.

Any way you slice it, I simply am not arguing what you insistently claim I'm arguing. And I take it as a sign of the dead end in your own thinking that you refuse to recognize that. It is possible to be the sort of hidebound conservative who claims evolution and innovation, you know, two words that appear far too often for my taste in kenpo talk-talk.

Sorry, but you're offering a reductionist view of my ideas on the matter. And I don't see how jamming what I'm saying into a little tiny box and throwing a set of cliches and generalizations at that box is going to represent an advance.