Do self defense programs work?

[Steve]

I do support it.

hoping tez would.

 

[JR 137]

I have seen one guy tried to drag a girl into his car in the street of Honolulu, Hawaii. That girl was screaming for help. People on the street just watched. Nobody was willing to stop that guy.

That’s been studied scientifically a bit. Different distress scenarios, but every time it was clearly a person in need of help.

Number one reason people stated why they didn’t help - they were in a hurry and didn’t have time to get involved. They were either on their way to work, school, get the kids, etc. And different groups of people didn’t matter - religious, young, old, good neighborhood, bad neighborhood, etc.; the stats of people who helped vs people who didn’t were about the same regardless of the group and the location. There was a show called What Would You Do or something like that on MSNBC or the like that was pretty similar to the scientific studies. Different scenarios, all people who needed help and most people kept walking rather than helping. And they were asked why they did or didn’t help. Most who didn’t were too busy and didn’t have the time, yet they somehow had time to talk to the interviewer around the corner. Funny how that works, I guess getting on TV is important enough.

IMO people are also less likely to get involved in male vs female nowadays because of how domestic violence people react. Often enough, the victim becomes the aggressor to the person who tries to help. It’s that twisted “don’t touch my man” mentality even though they’re getting beat up. I’ve seen it several times.

It’s a real F’ed up world out there. And it seems like it’s just getting worse.

 

[dvcochran]

The simple point I’m trying to make is that safety is objectively measurable, but being able to fight (while fun) isn’t universally helpful. Meaning, we have crime statistics that break out by all manner of various factors, so we can see that some behaviors and circumstances result in higher risk of violence.

Agree. A fact of life that is more avoidable for some than others just by where they live, among other factors.

The choice is, do I continue to do this thing or not? If you choose to drink to excess publicly, alone, learning to fight might help mitigate the risk. However, you could choose not to drink to excess, or just have a buddy. Or drink to excess at home. There are many very effective ways to mitigate the personal risk, and only one of those might benefit from fighting skill. This kind of evaluation could be applied to any situation. Some will lend themselves to learning to fight. Some, many if you’re an average person, will be effectively overcome by making some simple changes.

All this falls under the guise of common sense. Again, sadly something that some people are lacking more than others. But I feel you are off topic with what the OP is searching for (generous speculation here). Until I have a reason not to, I am going to give her the benefit of a doubt and assume she have at least average common sense and is wish enough to avoid at least the gross extremes of situations like you mentioned. I heard her asking "what is the best way to learn how to physically protect myself"? A good MA program should help with the self realization and thinking better in stressful environments.
Our GM was talking about forms tonight. He made a very good point that they are just a tool to help us get better, physically and mentally. But they only work if you apply them correctly. Sure, they will help anyone get more physically fit. But they are an excellent mental acquity tool.

 

[Steve]

Its only off topic if the OP is uninterested in being more safe. Regarding presuming he has common sense, I don't know why you would presume anything. Unfounded presumptions cause a it of misunderstanding around here,.

 

[drop bear]

That’s been studied scientifically a bit. Different distress scenarios, but every time it was clearly a person in need of help.

Number one reason people stated why they didn’t help - they were in a hurry and didn’t have time to get involved. They were either on their way to work, school, get the kids, etc. And different groups of people didn’t matter - religious, young, old, good neighborhood, bad neighborhood, etc.; the stats of people who helped vs people who didn’t were about the same regardless of the group and the location. There was a show called What Would You Do or something like that on MSNBC or the like that was pretty similar to the scientific studies. Different scenarios, all people who needed help and most people kept walking rather than helping. And they were asked why they did or didn’t help. Most who didn’t were too busy and didn’t have the time, yet they somehow had time to talk to the interviewer around the corner. Funny how that works, I guess getting on TV is important enough.

IMO people are also less likely to get involved in male vs female nowadays because of how domestic violence people react. Often enough, the victim becomes the aggressor to the person who tries to help. It’s that twisted “don’t touch my man” mentality even though they’re getting beat up. I’ve seen it several times.

It’s a real F’ed up world out there. And it seems like it’s just getting worse.

 

[dvcochran]

Great video. Wonderful to see people willing to help someone in need.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I have seen one guy tried to drag a girl into his car in the street of Honolulu, Hawaii. That girl was screaming for help. People on the street just watched. Nobody was willing to stop that guy.

Thats the whole "someone else will do it" effect, i forget its actual name, you can get a few cases of it. Plus the generic thing is just to call the police anyway, they dont overly want citizens to do their job and you cant really say nobody called the police, they just didn't step in. (unless you followed all of them home and have their entire phone records for the day)


Edit: didnt see JR's response to it and thats better put than mine.

 

[JR 137]

The homeless man with the shopping cart probably didn’t have anything he was running late for.

And all the people waiting for the train weren’t going anywhere without helping.

 

[jobo]

That’s been studied scientifically a bit. Different distress scenarios, but every time it was clearly a person in need of help.

Number one reason people stated why they didn’t help - they were in a hurry and didn’t have time to get involved. They were either on their way to work, school, get the kids, etc. And different groups of people didn’t matter - religious, young, old, good neighborhood, bad neighborhood, etc.; the stats of people who helped vs people who didn’t were about the same regardless of the group and the location. There was a show called What Would You Do or something like that on MSNBC or the like that was pretty similar to the scientific studies. Different scenarios, all people who needed help and most people kept walking rather than helping. And they were asked why they did or didn’t help. Most who didn’t were too busy and didn’t have the time, yet they somehow had time to talk to the interviewer around the corner. Funny how that works, I guess getting on TV is important enough.

IMO people are also less likely to get involved in male vs female nowadays because of how domestic violence people react. Often enough, the victim becomes the aggressor to the person who tries to help. It’s that twisted “don’t touch my man” mentality even though they’re getting beat up. I’ve seen it several times.

It’s a real F’ed up world out there. And it seems like it’s just getting worse.

theres also a " scientific " thing, that the more people are present the less likely anyone of them is going to help you. theres a herd thing going on where every waits for some one else to intervene. where if it's only you !

 

[Gerry Seymour]

as a group we naturally think that dedicating a bif chunk of your life to ma, is both benifical and necessary, coz that what we do. but actually supporting that with some data about real world situations and you come back with a few anecdotes. theres is no guarantee that in a stressful situation that your going to have greater proficiency at a technique that some one who has done it for 30 hours. non at all. rather your faced with choosing one technique iut of dozens of variations, whilst they will only have one, so theres no decision process to delay things.

all over the world non ma defend themselves adequately every day, it's clear that doing so then doesn't necessarily requires thousands or even hundreds of hours of training

The idea that having more options makes it harder to choose one is an over-generalization from a very specific piece of cognitive research. There's no evidence I know of to support it for a well-trained set of skills.

I also know of no evidence that suggests training a skill over a longer period leaves one with no better chance of being able to use it than training it 30 hours once, some time ago.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And women shouldn't dress provocatively?

Either way a lot of violence is predatory. It doesn't really matter if the guy is a duchebag or not.

What has women's dress to do with what Steve said?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Women have been raped and sexually assaulted throughout history, despite wearing corsets, layers of petticoats and other garments. They were also not allowed out on their own or to go out drinking they were still raped. Instead of telling women how not to be sexually assaulted how about we teach boys how not to rape and assault when they get older.
Alesha MacPhail trial: Boy, 16, found guilty of rape and murder of six-year-old in Scotland

Do you really think saying, "Don't do that" will change much for the folks who think that it's okay? In some cultures, there may be real benefit from changing the culture, but not in all cases is that a factor.

 

[Steve]

The idea that having more options makes it harder to choose one is an over-generalization from a very specific piece of cognitive research. There's no evidence I know of to support it for a well-trained set of skills.

I also know of no evidence that suggests training a skill over a longer period leaves one with no better chance of being able to use it than training it 30 hours once, some time ago.

Yeah. It's called the paradox of choice and really refers to happiness and anxiety. It's not about inability to choose.

As to whether a skill takes 1, 10, or 1000 hours to master, that really depends.

My point is that skill development aside, personal safety is about mitigating risk.

 

[Tez3]

Do you really think saying, "Don't do that" will change much for the folks who think that it's okay? In some cultures, there may be real benefit from changing the culture, but not in all cases is that a factor.

My post was about those who tell women 'not to' do various things because it's considered it leads to their rapes, when in fact it should be made clear that women aren't to blame, the rapists are.

What has women's dress to do with what Steve said?

Fairly oblivious actually, it's the list of things that 'women do that make them responsible for their being assaulted', DB was adding the bit Steve missed off.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah. It's called the paradox of choice and really refers to happiness and anxiety. It's not about inability to choose.

As to whether a skill takes 1, 10, or 1000 hours to master, that really depends.

My point is that skill development aside, personal safety is about mitigating risk.

Agreed. It's why I consciously try to keep a divide between the topics of self-defense (physical skills for surviving an attack) and self-protection (the rest of the stuff that keeps us safe from harm...or arguably the larger topic that also includes self-defense). I don't think much durable self-defense can be had in a short workshop. Some durable self-protection can be had.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My post was about those who tell women 'not to' do various things because it's considered it leads to their rapes, when in fact it should be made clear that women aren't to blame, the rapists are.

Fair enough, but I don't think folks are saying "If you do this, it's your fault." They're saying, "If you make this choice, you can reduce the risk." It's like walking down an alley in a place I don't know. If I make that choice (which I ought to be able to make), it's not my fault if I get attacked. But I know that there's somewhat more risk in a random alley than a random busy street. So I make the choice that reduces my risk, since I can't control what stupidity others might wish to impose.

Fairly oblivious actually, it's the list of things that 'women do that make them responsible for their being assaulted', DB was adding the bit Steve missed off.

I don't think most folks imply such things when they give a list of things a woman (or anyone else) can do to reduce risk. Probably some do, but I think those folks are in a minority these days (and possibly were not at times in the past).

 

[Tez3]

I don't think most folks imply such things when they give a list of things a woman (or anyone else) can do to reduce risk. Probably some do, but I think those folks are in a minority these days (and possibly were not at times in the past).

Nope, many people still think it's a woman's fault hence the list of things women should wear or do.
Rape Culture, Victim Blaming, and The Facts

Drunk or flirty rape victims often 'to blame', says survey

Myths about Rape | Title IX

 

[Steve]

Agreed. It's why I consciously try to keep a divide between the topics of self-defense (physical skills for surviving an attack) and self-protection (the rest of the stuff that keeps us safe from harm...or arguably the larger topic that also includes self-defense). I don't think much durable self-defense can be had in a short workshop. Some durable self-protection can be had.

I have never seen anywhere any evidence that there is any correlation between "self defense" training and one's odds of being victimized. I have, however, seen a lot of evidence that the "rest of the stuff that keeps us safe" is simple to learn and does have a material impact on one's odds of being victimized. Said simply, just telling me that street ninjutsu is better than tae bo for self defense doesn't make it so.

 

[Steve]

My post was about those who tell women 'not to' do various things because it's considered it leads to their rapes, when in fact it should be made clear that women aren't to blame, the rapists are.



Fairly oblivious actually, it's the list of things that 'women do that make them responsible for their being assaulted', DB was adding the bit Steve missed off.

I actually referenced a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine about a program offered on college campuses in Canada that was created by and for women with the specific intent of reducing their likelihood of being victims. If you have issues with them, their approach, or their results, I think you're being completely unreasonable. I mean, bless your heart, Tez3, you literally cannot tell your allies from your enemies.

 

[Steve]

Who here has a spare tire on their car? For those who do, why do you have one? For those who don't, what would you do if you have a flat tire?

I'm betting that those who have one are thinking, it came with the car, and I have it in case I get a flat. For those who don't, some possible answers are, "I have AAA (or roadside assistance of some kind)." Or they possibly have not given it any thought. If someone said, "No, I don't have one, and honestly I have no idea what I'd do," the reasonable response would be, "Well, my friend. Maybe you can consider getting a spare tire... or roadside assistance... or a can of tire foam."

The point is, talking to any group of people (women, men, college students, whoever) about risk isn't blaming them for anything. It's making them aware of risk and giving them options. When I told my son to get his oil changed, buy a paper road atlas, and check the weather in the mountain passes before he drove from Washington to Texas wasn't blaming him for anything. It was helping him prevent issues where possible, and prepare for the issues that might occur. Driving into a blizzard in the mountain pass is an avoidable issue, in most cases. You can simply not do it, which is pretty easy to do. But if you decide you're going to do it, you should be prepared to take additional steps to stay safe.