Do maiming and killing only work in SD?

[JP3]

I have broken a guys arm in a lock once. It is super creepy.

I can understand that. Thai leg-kicked a guy one time and I was zigging when he was zagging apparently and it blew out his knee. Super-creepy, indeed. Later on in the debrief we sort of collectively figured out he was trying to switch up his feet and ended up putting his full weight on it right as the kick came dropping in.

In thinking about @CB Jones comment about things getting broken... there was that tread a while back about the doorman who hit a guy who swung on him, guy fell, either offbalanced or knocked out -- it was unclear from the write-up, the guy fell and cracked his skull when he hit the curb. Environmental after-effects of techniques can be worse than the techniques themselves.

I've dropped guys using foot sweeps, floating hip throws which sort of got put together on the spot, etc., but I'm easing them down tot he ground. Probably good for them as most clubs have stone or tile floor to make clean up easier.... Can you imagine really blasting into one of the big throws and throwing the guy "through the mat" like we do in competition? Sheesh...

 

[Gaucho]

[QUOTE="JP3, post: 1967303, member: 34310" Can you imagine really blasting into one of the big throws and throwing the guy "through the mat" like we do in competition? Sheesh...[/QUOTE]

Thus the difference between sport judo and combat ju-jitsu. In the latter, you just release the guy at the end of the throw and let him hit the ground at 30 (or whatever) miles per hour. It's usually much more harmful than a hard punch. I personally know of one death and one permanent disability caused by soldier/ex-soldier (2 separate cases) using marines' combat ju-jitsu. Both were found "not-guilty," and demonstrate the possible peril of getting boozed and trying to punch a stranger in the face.

Turning judo into something deadly requires very little alteration. People don't usually bounce well.

 

[Buka]

Any time I've taken someone down someone for real I've always tried to ease them to the ground. Unless I have them in such a way that I'm controlling their head - then I may whip their legs down really hard.

In competitions I used to always try to take them down as harmlessly as possible. I never had any desire to hurt someone I was competing against. Unless, you know, they went all World war 3 on me or something.

 

[JP3]

[QUOTE

Turning judo into something deadly requires very little alteration. People don't usually bounce well.

I think that'd be better said as, "People don't usually survive a bounce well." I hear ya though. We've got good threads on here talking about the positives v. negatives of judo as a self-defense.... I'll say skill, not system. Lots of good thoughts on it. Personally, I like it as it works for me. But, I'm just a guy who goes to nightclubs, bars and restaraunts with a pretty wife, not in LEO, so... I'm not qualified to speak on that level of need of efficacy. Judo can be simple to teach and simple to learn (note I didn't say "easy), you can get kids involved in it as an organized sport/activity at very young ages, and you can continue to play/practice (you pick the word you like, I prefer play, myself), well into their elder years. I've laid hands on a 7th dan in his late 80s... and it was a very good time. So smooth...

 

[GojuTommy]

I’ve had to restrain people on various drugs including the dreaded PCP, while working hospital security, people who ‘keyed’ up in some way are the only ones you’ll probably be fighting. Calm logical and sane people don’t typically attack others.

But no, you do not have to KO, maim or kill a ‘keyed up’ opponent.

Leverage still works. If you are big/strong enough m, you can still over power them, et.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I’ve had to restrain people on various drugs including the dreaded PCP, while working hospital security, people who ‘keyed’ up in some way are the only ones you’ll probably be fighting. Calm logical and sane people don’t typically attack others.

But no, you do not have to KO, maim or kill a ‘keyed up’ opponent.

Leverage still works. If you are big/strong enough m, you can still over power them, et.

I called for police assistance at a place I ran.
Me - 6'3" 230-250 lbs depending upon dehydration and time of year / day .

The police officer was loosing the battle against this smaller guy.
Police 6'4" 230ish
Smaller guy about 5'6" and about 140 lbs.

I asked if he needed help or wanted me to call for help.
He said yes Help him.
I had his arm behind his back. One hand on his elbow and the other on his hand with his wrist in a 90 deg angle.
He was on the ground. I was laying on top of him.
He looked over his shoulder and said F-U and lifted his arm up.
It broke his wrist and he didn't flinch.
We rolled around for ever - probably 90 seconds to 120 seconds and then I said to the officer I would hold him while he called for more back up.

I rolled him back on top of me and loosely held him and he relaxed looking up at the blue sky.
The Officer called for back up.
He leaned over us. As his shadow crossed his body I could feel it tightening up.
Another for ever probably another 120 seconds or so.

We had rolled to within a few feet of the road on the parking lot pavement.
His hand was nothing more than a flail and it still worked well that way.
He bit the cop multiple times and broke skin each time.

The first car rolled in hot. Damn near ran me over. As I looked up form the noise of the first tire passing, I was looking up at the body of the car above me and read wheel moved my hair as he was turning and stopping.

I balled up and started screaming I was helping the officer. - this was on repeat.
As each officer rolled in I was continuing you the above process not moving from my ball.

Finally a sergeant says you can get up and move away. I did.

It took 6 police to cuff him.
It took the same 6 to get his legs cuffed as he hurt many more officers while they tried to get him into a vehicle.
They took four officers to get him in even after legs and hands were cuffed together.
He dislocated shoulders and hips and would spin and bit or flail.


Physics that day was not enough unless you wanted to maim the person. * See broken wrist * And even then it was not enough.

So yes there are cases where it depends.

 

[GojuTommy]

I called for police assistance at a place I ran.
Me - 6'3" 230-250 lbs depending upon dehydration and time of year / day .

The police officer was loosing the battle against this smaller guy.
Police 6'4" 230ish
Smaller guy about 5'6" and about 140 lbs.

I asked if he needed help or wanted me to call for help.
He said yes Help him.
I had his arm behind his back. One hand on his elbow and the other on his hand with his wrist in a 90 deg angle.
He was on the ground. I was laying on top of him.
He looked over his shoulder and said F-U and lifted his arm up.
It broke his wrist and he didn't flinch.
We rolled around for ever - probably 90 seconds to 120 seconds and then I said to the officer I would hold him while he called for more back up.

I rolled him back on top of me and loosely held him and he relaxed looking up at the blue sky.
The Officer called for back up.
He leaned over us. As his shadow crossed his body I could feel it tightening up.
Another for ever probably another 120 seconds or so.

We had rolled to within a few feet of the road on the parking lot pavement.
His hand was nothing more than a flail and it still worked well that way.
He bit the cop multiple times and broke skin each time.

The first car rolled in hot. Damn near ran me over. As I looked up form the noise of the first tire passing, I was looking up at the body of the car above me and read wheel moved my hair as he was turning and stopping.

I balled up and started screaming I was helping the officer. - this was on repeat.
As each officer rolled in I was continuing you the above process not moving from my ball.

Finally a sergeant says you can get up and move away. I did.

It took 6 police to cuff him.
It took the same 6 to get his legs cuffed as he hurt many more officers while they tried to get him into a vehicle.
They took four officers to get him in even after legs and hands were cuffed together.
He dislocated shoulders and hips and would spin and bit or flail.


Physics that day was not enough unless you wanted to maim the person. * See broken wrist * And even then it was not enough.

So yes there are cases where it depends.

You’re not going to convince me little tiny manlet was able to lift someone your claimed size off of him if you sat on him.

I’ve dealt with many people on many drugs and many psych issues, never needed more than 3 people to restrain someone of a normal size. Had one dude 300+lbs who was flailing around pretty good that took a lot of us to deal with him. He ended up being a scammer who later called in a shooting threat against the hospital lol. Bad decision after bad decision in his life.

 

[Steve]

I called for police assistance at a place I ran.
Me - 6'3" 230-250 lbs depending upon dehydration and time of year / day .

The police officer was loosing the battle against this smaller guy.
Police 6'4" 230ish
Smaller guy about 5'6" and about 140 lbs.

I asked if he needed help or wanted me to call for help.
He said yes Help him.
I had his arm behind his back. One hand on his elbow and the other on his hand with his wrist in a 90 deg angle.
He was on the ground. I was laying on top of him.
He looked over his shoulder and said F-U and lifted his arm up.
It broke his wrist and he didn't flinch.
We rolled around for ever - probably 90 seconds to 120 seconds and then I said to the officer I would hold him while he called for more back up.

I rolled him back on top of me and loosely held him and he relaxed looking up at the blue sky.
The Officer called for back up.
He leaned over us. As his shadow crossed his body I could feel it tightening up.
Another for ever probably another 120 seconds or so.

We had rolled to within a few feet of the road on the parking lot pavement.
His hand was nothing more than a flail and it still worked well that way.
He bit the cop multiple times and broke skin each time.

The first car rolled in hot. Damn near ran me over. As I looked up form the noise of the first tire passing, I was looking up at the body of the car above me and read wheel moved my hair as he was turning and stopping.

I balled up and started screaming I was helping the officer. - this was on repeat.
As each officer rolled in I was continuing you the above process not moving from my ball.

Finally a sergeant says you can get up and move away. I did.

It took 6 police to cuff him.
It took the same 6 to get his legs cuffed as he hurt many more officers while they tried to get him into a vehicle.
They took four officers to get him in even after legs and hands were cuffed together.
He dislocated shoulders and hips and would spin and bit or flail.


Physics that day was not enough unless you wanted to maim the person. * See broken wrist * And even then it was not enough.

So yes there are cases where it depends.

I ran into that dude too. Had the good sense to avoid him. I did get a picture though.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You’re not going to convince me little tiny manlet was able to lift someone your claimed size off of him if you sat on him.

Maybe I misread something - I didn’t see where he said the guy lifted him.

 

[Rich Parsons]

You’re not going to convince me little tiny manlet was able to lift someone your claimed size off of him if you sat on him.

I’ve dealt with many people on many drugs and many psych issues, never needed more than 3 people to restrain someone of a normal size. Had one dude 300+lbs who was flailing around pretty good that took a lot of us to deal with him. He ended up being a scammer who later called in a shooting threat against the hospital lol. Bad decision after bad decision in his life.

1) I am not lying.
2) Your experiences do not invalidate mine.

3) And yes, I have waded into a group of 3 to 6 to 10 and come out the better. My point was that it is not always 100% one way.

I and four other guys went through a large business window. They were a lot more injured than me.
I continued to roll and get out of the way of the window that popped out and up .

 

[Rich Parsons]

I ran into that dude too. Had the good sense to avoid him. I did get a picture though.

View attachment 29319

That little guy in the picture is much nicer and built subtle different and I doubt the same hold / lock would have caused him to break a wrist. This little guy would clean my clock

 

[Steve]

That little guy in the picture is much nicer and built subtle different and I doubt the same hold / lock would have caused him to break a wrist. This little guy would clean my clock

That is for sure. Chimps that are unhappy are very tough customers.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That is for sure. Chimps that are unhappy are very tough customers.

But if you poke them in the eye.... /s

 

[punisher73]

I think people sometimes forget the amount of muscle those guys have under that hair/fur. It is estimated that they are 4 times stronger than a man.

I remember a couple times getting into a scuffle with a "small man" who happened to be a hard manual labor guy. I'll put my money on those guys for strength every time over "gym boy muscle".

 

[Cynik75]

. It is estimated that they are 4 times stronger than a man.

Nope. About 1.35 Chimpanzee super strength and human skeletal muscle evolution

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Nope. About 1.35 Chimpanzee super strength and human skeletal muscle evolution

That seems to be analyzing the difference in strength for a similar muscle. Perhaps the 4x is comparing an average chimp to an average person?

 

[Steve]

That seems to be analyzing the difference in strength for a similar muscle. Perhaps the 4x is comparing an average chimp to an average person?

All I know is an angry chimp is going to f*** a dude up.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

All I know is an angry chimp is going to f*** a dude up.

I don’t like my chances with a really happy one, either.

 

[Oily Dragon]

All I know is an angry chimp is going to f*** a dude up.

Depends on the dude.

Chimps can't learn Jiujitsu. They haven't evolved enough.

 

[Cynik75]

That seems to be analyzing the difference in strength for a similar muscle. Perhaps the 4x is comparing an average chimp to an average person?

Average chimps is full time calisthenics practictioner average person not. I would like to see the result of comparing chimp with calisthenics athlete.