The aikido thing

Kung Fu Wang

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Try the new way to see why they like it. It might be better, or might just give mean option for whenI end up with a wrist instead of a elbow. I don’t think it needs to be a matter of faith.
What if you know the new way is wrong?

For example, you have always believed that "body should push/pull the limbs". One day a new teacher teaches you to "freeze your body and only move your arm". Will you "empty your cup" and allow the wrong idea to get into your cup?

Which one is more important?

1. Willing to empty your cup.
2. Have faith in your person believe.

If you want me to empty my cup, you have to show me you have something worthwhile for me to do so.

I had emptied my cup for MT roundhouse kick because it meets my believe that "body push/pull limbs".

 
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geezer

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What if you know the new way is wrong?

For example, you have always believed that "body should push/pull the limbs". One day a new teacher teaches you to "freeze your body and only move your arm". Will you "empty your cup" and allow the wrong idea to get into your cup?

Which one is more important?

1. Willing to empty your cup.
2. Have faith in your person believe.

If you want me to empty my cup, you have to show me you have something worthwhile for me to do so.

I had emptied my cup for MT roundhouse kick because it meets my believe that "body push/pull limbs".


This is a real problem. I think the way it's supposed to work is that if you observe that another style or system produces very desirable results, that you want to learn, then you will consciously set aside your preconceptions and "empty your cup" in order to learn those skills. However, if after a reasonable amount of time, you don't find the desired results worth the investment, a reasonable person will stop "investing in loss" and return to other training methods that yield success ...so, you "empty your cup" for a time and test out the new method, like a scientific experiment. Then gather your data, and determine whether the experiment validates the new method or not.

Or, you could just become a "true believer" and empty out your common sense with along with your cup, and spend a lifetime pursuing fantasies. Speaking of which, has anybody watched the videos by "Martial Man" on this Adam Mizner guy? Guess I'm not totally ready to dump out my brains ...er "cup" on this stuff yet.

 

Flying Crane

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What if you know the new way is wrong?

For example, you have always believed that "body should push/pull the limbs". One day a new teacher teaches you to "freeze your body and only move your arm". Will you "empty your cup" and allow the wrong idea to get into your cup?

Which one is more important?

1. Willing to empty your cup.
2. Have faith in your person believe.

If you want me to empty my cup, you have to show me you have something worthwhile for me to do so.

I had emptied my cup for MT roundhouse kick because it meets my believe that "body push/pull limbs".

Jeezuz, man.

If you feel you are being taught stuff that is incorrect, then stop learning it and go back to what you already know.

But IFFFF you decide to learn something new, you need to be willing to learn it on its own merits. You need to be willing to understand the method on its own terms. You don’t make it into a modified version of Shuai Jiao. Otherwise you have learned nothing and there is no point to what you have done.

If you find compatibilities between the methods, that comes later after you understand the new method.

This really is not a difficult concept.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Speaking of which, has anybody watched the videos by "Martial Man" on this Adam Mizner guy? Guess I'm not totally ready to dump out my brains ...er "cup" on this stuff yet.

I'm a strong believer that one should keep his friend close but his enemy closer.

One time if I didn't stopped one guy from getting back to his car, I could be killed that day. That guy had a hand gun in his glove compartment. He tried to get back to his car. I got hold of him until the police came.

If a MA style teaches me how to push my opponent away, I don't even have to try it. I already know that I won't like it.
 

drop bear

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So we need to look at the evidence rather than preconceptions or dogma.

Big surprise there.

High kicks for example. The preconception is you can't do them or you will be taken down.

The reality is different.
 

MetalBoar

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So we need to look at the evidence rather than preconceptions or dogma.

Big surprise there.

High kicks for example. The preconception is you can't do them or you will be taken down.

The reality is different.
Well, I have the preconception that if I do high kicks I'll be taken down.

The reality is, if I do high kicks I'll take MYSELF down!
 

gpseymour

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What if you know the new way is wrong?

For example, you have always believed that "body should push/pull the limbs". One day a new teacher teaches you to "freeze your body and only move your arm". Will you "empty your cup" and allow the wrong idea to get into your cup?

Which one is more important?

1. Willing to empty your cup.
2. Have faith in your person believe.

If you want me to empty my cup, you have to show me you have something worthwhile for me to do so.

I had emptied my cup for MT roundhouse kick because it meets my believe that "body push/pull limbs".

If the new way is wrong, I'll figure it out by trying it out. Not trying something new assumes it is less valuable than something I already know. And I don't like making assumptions in either direction on that. Information removes the need to assume.

I empty my cup every time I step into a learning situation as a student, unless and until I see a benefit to bringing what I already know. If I'm not going to do that, there's not much sense in stepping in as a student.
 
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What do people think of this:


There seems to be less co operation with techniques and the guys seem to actually have to work for the movement in some ways.

I think i heard somewhere that the Tomiki style of Aikido is not thought so highly of among other branches of Aikido. Would be interested to hear opinions
 

_Simon_

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What do people think of this:


There seems to be less co operation with techniques and the guys seem to actually have to work for the movement in some ways.

I think i heard somewhere that the Tomiki style of Aikido is not thought so highly of among other branches of Aikido. Would be interested to hear opinions
That was darn cool to watch! I didn't even know there were aikido tournaments, but it makes sense! What was the stick they had? And did they have to disarm them, or take them down?

It very much resembled judo in ways. Very cool :)
 

Kung Fu Wang

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What do people think of this:

I'm very surprised to see that the Chinese wresting single leg (push shoulder, pull leg) has been used in this clip over and over. I don't see it used very much in MMA, BJJ, Judo, or western wrestling.


Here is the Chinese wrestling single leg.

 
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dunc

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I never really liked the phrase "empty the cup" as it has an hint of blind faith about it

I prefer "open minded critical thinking"
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I never really liked the phrase "empty the cup" as it has an hint of blind faith about it

I prefer "open minded critical thinking"
How many times do you want to pour your water out of your cup in your life time? One day when you are 80, will you empty your cup for a 20 years old?
 

drop bear

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I'm very surprised to see that the Chinese wresting single leg (push shoulder, pull leg) has been used in this clip over and over. I don't see it used very much in MMA, BJJ, Judo, or western wrestling.


Here is the Chinese wrestling single leg.


The second one gets used a bit. It is called a knee tap,

I use it off a failed single leg,
 

Hanzou

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What do people think of this:


There seems to be less co operation with techniques and the guys seem to actually have to work for the movement in some ways.

I think i heard somewhere that the Tomiki style of Aikido is not thought so highly of among other branches of Aikido. Would be interested to hear opinions

Yeah, that stuff isn't bad. However, it's just not as refined as what you see out of Judo or Bjj.

It wouldn't surprise me if the more traditional styles of Aikido look down on Tomiki style. Ueshiba supposedly detested competitive sports.
 

gpseymour

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What do people think of this:


There seems to be less co operation with techniques and the guys seem to actually have to work for the movement in some ways.

I think i heard somewhere that the Tomiki style of Aikido is not thought so highly of among other branches of Aikido. Would be interested to hear opinions
You don't get to see a lot of the flowing, smooth movements, and the competitions are somehow contrary to how many folks see Aikido, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Tomiki branch is less accepted. Personally, I quite like seeing them pull off those techniques. Much more Judo-ish than most of Aikido. I think what holds it back from developing further is they seem to be trying to hold to the "Aikido techniques", rather than working on developing aiki with any techniques that would work in that competition context.
 

gpseymour

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I never really liked the phrase "empty the cup" as it has an hint of blind faith about it

I prefer "open minded critical thinking"
I've never found anything about blind faith in "empty the cup". It's more about taking the time to learn something before trying to alter or judge it. And that's important if you're trying to learn something. The purpose of a movement, drill, or instruction might not be immediately clear, and it might even seem stupid or "wrong" to someone with other information. So, if I go into a new style and start judging everything by what I already know - maybe deciding I already have a better technique than that - then I never get to learn anything well enough to find out how good it actually is (or isn't).
 

Tony Dismukes

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What do people think of this:


There seems to be less co operation with techniques and the guys seem to actually have to work for the movement in some ways.

I think i heard somewhere that the Tomiki style of Aikido is not thought so highly of among other branches of Aikido. Would be interested to hear opinions
I like what I’ve seen of Tomiki Aikido. If there was a good school near me I would want to check it out.

Yeah, that stuff isn't bad. However, it's just not as refined as what you see out of Judo or Bjj.
Tomiki has a much smaller competitive talent pool to draw on than Judo or BJJ, so it doesn’t surprise me that they may not have had as much technical development. However the difference in competition rules means that they are developing some skills that you don’t see used as much in Judo and BJJ. Specifically, they spend more time working on entering and finishing a takedown from distance rather than staying clinched. There are real world situations where that could come in handy. The bare hands vs knife rules nerf the knife wielder considerably compared to reality (otherwise the guy with the knife would win 95% of the time), but I can see where that style of sparring would do a lot to develop functionality in a certain style of defense against a certain style of knife attack.

BJJ and Judo handle their respective domains very well. I’m always interested to see what people can do within a different set of limitations.
 

oftheherd1

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what? This is a pretty silly argument to make. It is literally an attempt to legitimize superstition .

You got me on that one. Can you elaborate so I understand what you are trying to say. Please use simple words to help me.
 
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