Questions about aikibudo, aiki jujitsu, and ninjutsu

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Well I didn't see him do one. Which is the point. Being good at hypothetical fights is always the excuse for being bad a real fights.

Do you know him? If he's willing to do a bjj comp he might be ip for a kicboxing fight. Ask him if he is and let us know how it goes-i'd be really curious about the response.

 

[drop bear]

Do you know him? If he's willing to do a bjj comp he might be ip for a kicboxing fight. Ask him if he is and let us know how it goes-i'd be really curious about the response.

I don't know him. He just rolled in and disappeared after.

 

[Steve]

Connor McGregor would take out a white belt BJJ competition though.

Sure he would. But he wouldn't need to in order to benefit from the competition. Even if he lost, he'd learn something.

 

[Charbel Hanna]

This conversation really got out of hand, haha! But seriously, thanks everybody for your advice.
For an update, turns out my wife mostly wants to hit stuff (and people), and she's not interested in grappling and locks, so none of the three martial arts I want to do interests her. We'll probably do some muay thai together and I'll do jujitsu (or something related) by myself.

Thanks y'all for your answers and your advice! I really appreciate it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I haven't caught up on the entire thread, so some of my reply may repeat what others have said. For starters, bienvenu!

Know that perhaps the most important part of the choice is whether you'll go or not. Pick something that fits your needs, interests you, and is convenient enough to keep life from interfering too easily. Picking based on the style is chancy, as there can be large variations between schools (though that's not always the case). That said, some feedback about the three you posted.

1- Aikibudo
Aikibudo, Kobudo - Essai gratuit

2- Aiki jujitsu
Accueil

3- Ninjutsu
Budo Montreal – Budo Montreal Ninjutsu

The first two both appear to be Yoseikan Aikido (though both have decided not to use that name, either for marketing reasons or because they've split from that base). I know only a little about that style. What's promising about it is that the style does typically include some Judo, which covers one of the big gaps in most Aikido programs: what to do when the other guy gets really close and/or the "aiki" techniques aren't available. The first school doesn't even list that Judo heritage, so based only on the websites (really thin evidence for basing any judgment), I'd give a slight edge to the second school. Know in advance, though, that many Aikido schools (all styles of Aikido can suffer this, to some degree) have a problem, in that they want to train with a self-defense orientation, but are very focused on the philosophy of Aikido, which keeps them away from solutions that clash, which are often the easiest, most reliable solutions. This also leads many of them to never really train strikes, so you get no tools from that area, and are practicing against bad "attacks".

I know nothing about Ninjutsu, so can speak nothing to that third site, except to say the website didn't really give me any reason to think they teach anything about actually fighting (which is what self-defense is, when we get to the point of actually defending).

In my last dojo, there were free time to actually fight. The art was non-competitive, but during that free time, people would put on a helmet and other protection and get at each other. I agree that simply practicing katas isn't very helpful in real life. So I guess I'll look for a dojo that at least offers this possibility. Or I'll take up Muay Thai haha!

Thank you for your answer!

There's real value to competition. You don't have to compete yourself to see some of that value (though that helps) - being in a school where others compete means you have folks around you who know what works against skilled people from actual practice. Competition also tends to thin out the selection of tools, so you know where to focus. It's even possible to compete without really training with a competition focus, as long as you're not trying to win tournaments. You can just go in to see how your training works for you in that context. I trained most of my life in non-competitive dojos, and am now an advocate for having some competition along the way. At the very least, that should be good sparring in the dojo. For advanced students, that should at least expand to sparring/rolling with folks from other styles, even if informally.

So, for better results, you'd like to have some competitors to train with. When training with a self-defense focus, it's also helpful to train with those who will need the skills on a regular basis "in the street" - cops, bouncers, etc. This will give another kind of feedback, something quite different from competition, that will inform your focus in training.

To be very clear, if you're just looking for something cool that you'll enjoy, any style that suits your fancy will work. If jujutsu appeals to you, by all means, have fun and enjoy yourself. A lot of great reasons to do it. Just don't confuse the sales pitch with the product.

This is important, Charbel. Self-defense is not a thing. As you used the term self-defense orienation in your OP, I suspect you already get this. But just to reinforce, self-defense training is either about fighting, or about avoiding the situations (de-escalation, awareness, choices, etc.). When we talk about physical training for self-defense, we're talking about training to fight off an attack. So, you're training to fight. There's a lot of good marketing out there about "we don't fight", and that's valid if what they mean is they develop the confidence to walk away from potential fights (like in a bar, road rage, etc.). Beyond that, it's just marketing.

The problem you have with not competing is you struggle to mix with people who are any good.

And good at fighting is seriously 90% of self defence. (When it comes to self defense fighting there is a whole staying out of fighting aspect)

The easiest way to break that cycle of being a specific rules based fighter, or BJJ butt flopper is to do different competitions so that you have to manage different circumstances.

Self defense is a puzzle. You get all these solutions to solve only certain parts. And if your solve enough. You get to go home.

This. And the principle is the same even if you don't enter formal competitions. Don't always "spar" with the same ruleset, nor always against folks who trained with you. The more you vary them, the more contexts you're testing out.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Ninjutsu (as in how its done and what calls itself it today) annoys me. Its dead, and the only people to revive it, have done it for hisotrical purposes and obviously arent teaching it as a martiala rt, but rather for living hisotry/historical analysis and reconstruction purposes. (that is proper ninjutsu not fake ninjutsu)

Then we also have the schinigens of the japnese and power plays in here as well.


If you ever want to do ninjutsu, i would advise seeking out tactical training and looking into SoE and sabotour manuals and modern survelivence etc, as thats the closest base you are going to get to primititive it back. (and would be a damn sight better than always wear black pajamas even in the middle of the day)

I dont really have anything more than my ravings on how much i hate modern mainstream ninjutsu.

Addendum: if your countries military reserve is good and you can get into it, thats a good place as they will pay you to do half of this anyway as part of your training.

 

[Headhunter]

Ninjutsu (as in how its done and what calls itself it today) annoys me. Its dead, and the only people to revive it, have done it for hisotrical purposes and obviously arent teaching it as a martiala rt, but rather for living hisotry/historical analysis and reconstruction purposes. (that is proper ninjutsu not fake ninjutsu)

Then we also have the schinigens of the japnese and power plays in here as well.


If you ever want to do ninjutsu, i would advise seeking out tactical training and looking into SoE and sabotour manuals and modern survelivence etc, as thats the closest base you are going to get to primititive it back. (and would be a damn sight better than always wear black pajamas even in the middle of the day)

I dont really have anything more than my ravings on how much i hate modern mainstream ninjutsu.

Addendum: if your countries military reserve is good and you can get into it, thats a good place as they will pay you to do half of this anyway as part of your training.

You ever go to a ninjitsu class or you just basing your hate off YouTube videos and Internet articles?...

 

[Steve]

You ever go to a ninjitsu class or you just basing your hate off YouTube videos and Internet articles?...

And talking to presumably knowledgeable folks on this and other similar forums. Right? I mean, I feel like I have a pretty good sense of it. I don’t need to try Adderall to know it’s probably a bad idea.

 

[Headhunter]

And talking to presumably knowledgeable folks on this and other similar forums. Right? I mean, I feel like I have a pretty good sense of it. I don’t need to try Adderall to know it’s probably a bad idea.

Well frankly if you’ve never trained a style (or any style) then you shouldn’t be telling people how rubbish it is...

 

[Charbel Hanna]

I haven't caught up on the entire thread, so some of my reply may repeat what others have said. For starters, bienvenu!

Know that perhaps the most important part of the choice is whether you'll go or not. Pick something that fits your needs, interests you, and is convenient enough to keep life from interfering too easily. Picking based on the style is chancy, as there can be large variations between schools (though that's not always the case). That said, some feedback about the three you posted.



The first two both appear to be Yoseikan Aikido (though both have decided not to use that name, either for marketing reasons or because they've split from that base). I know only a little about that style. What's promising about it is that the style does typically include some Judo, which covers one of the big gaps in most Aikido programs: what to do when the other guy gets really close and/or the "aiki" techniques aren't available. The first school doesn't even list that Judo heritage, so based only on the websites (really thin evidence for basing any judgment), I'd give a slight edge to the second school. Know in advance, though, that many Aikido schools (all styles of Aikido can suffer this, to some degree) have a problem, in that they want to train with a self-defense orientation, but are very focused on the philosophy of Aikido, which keeps them away from solutions that clash, which are often the easiest, most reliable solutions. This also leads many of them to never really train strikes, so you get no tools from that area, and are practicing against bad "attacks".

I know nothing about Ninjutsu, so can speak nothing to that third site, except to say the website didn't really give me any reason to think they teach anything about actually fighting (which is what self-defense is, when we get to the point of actually defending).



There's real value to competition. You don't have to compete yourself to see some of that value (though that helps) - being in a school where others compete means you have folks around you who know what works against skilled people from actual practice. Competition also tends to thin out the selection of tools, so you know where to focus. It's even possible to compete without really training with a competition focus, as long as you're not trying to win tournaments. You can just go in to see how your training works for you in that context. I trained most of my life in non-competitive dojos, and am now an advocate for having some competition along the way. At the very least, that should be good sparring in the dojo. For advanced students, that should at least expand to sparring/rolling with folks from other styles, even if informally.

So, for better results, you'd like to have some competitors to train with. When training with a self-defense focus, it's also helpful to train with those who will need the skills on a regular basis "in the street" - cops, bouncers, etc. This will give another kind of feedback, something quite different from competition, that will inform your focus in training.



This is important, Charbel. Self-defense is not a thing. As you used the term self-defense orienation in your OP, I suspect you already get this. But just to reinforce, self-defense training is either about fighting, or about avoiding the situations (de-escalation, awareness, choices, etc.). When we talk about physical training for self-defense, we're talking about training to fight off an attack. So, you're training to fight. There's a lot of good marketing out there about "we don't fight", and that's valid if what they mean is they develop the confidence to walk away from potential fights (like in a bar, road rage, etc.). Beyond that, it's just marketing.



This. And the principle is the same even if you don't enter formal competitions. Don't always "spar" with the same ruleset, nor always against folks who trained with you. The more you vary them, the more contexts you're testing out.

Wow! Thank you for this detailed answer. I really appreciate it.

When training with a self-defense focus, it's also helpful to train with those who will need the skills on a regular basis "in the street" - cops, bouncers, etc.

This is something I appreciated from my former dojo. The two sensei are cops, and so are many of the students, so they know what really happens in the street.

At the very least, that should be good sparring in the dojo. For advanced students, that should at least expand to sparring/rolling with folks from other styles, even if informally.

I can only agree to that!

When we talk about physical training for self-defense, we're talking about training to fight off an attack. So, you're training to fight.

Yes! Again, in my former dojo, the sensei was not trying to sell us a "pacifist self-defense" mentality. If someone attacks you in the street, try to avoid the fight, and here's how, but if you can't avoid the fight, here is how you can fight it back. Every kata involved at least one strike, if not more. Always keep your guard up, always. Keep moving, ground your feet on the ground, keep moving to avoid strikes, etc. All the while, always try to deescalate. Show the other person that you're confident without being arrogant, so that other person can walk away while keeping their head high, and you don't have to fight. But if you have to fight, this is how. And don't play super hero. If someone pulls a knife or a gun, chances that you win are very thin so do your best to avoid the fight.

This is what I liked. There was no sale speech. It was just raw realism.

But I digress. Thank you for your answer!

 

[Charbel Hanna]

Ninjutsu (as in how its done and what calls itself it today) annoys me. Its dead, and the only people to revive it, have done it for hisotrical purposes and obviously arent teaching it as a martiala rt, but rather for living hisotry/historical analysis and reconstruction purposes. (that is proper ninjutsu not fake ninjutsu)

Then we also have the schinigens of the japnese and power plays in here as well.


If you ever want to do ninjutsu, i would advise seeking out tactical training and looking into SoE and sabotour manuals and modern survelivence etc, as thats the closest base you are going to get to primititive it back. (and would be a damn sight better than always wear black pajamas even in the middle of the day)

I dont really have anything more than my ravings on how much i hate modern mainstream ninjutsu.

Addendum: if your countries military reserve is good and you can get into it, thats a good place as they will pay you to do half of this anyway as part of your training.

Thank you for your answer. To be honest, I am not kidding myself into believing that I will learn how to become a ninja in a ninjutsu dojo, but if the fighting techniques are any good, then whatever the name, I'll take it. The name matters less to me, what matters is what is taught. My former dojo was called Sogo Budo, nobody knows what that is because it is a very specific school in Quebec, a kind of variant of jujutsu mixed with other styles... but it was hella effective!

But yes, I agree that if I wanted to learn actual ninjutsu, as in "warfare and spying techniques", I'd better to in the army than in a dojo.

 

[Steve]

Well frankly if you’ve never trained a style (or any style) then you shouldn’t be telling people how rubbish it is...

I tell people not to abuse prescription drugs, too. Never done it myself. We can learn ABOUT things without doing those things. It’s a consistent issue around here going both directions that has to do with muddling up knowing about things and being able to do those things.

I don’t need to know how to ninja in order to know about ninjutsu.

conversely, I should never presume to know how to ninja just because I know about it,

if everyone internalized these two things, we’d have much more productive discussions.

 

[Headhunter]

I tell people not to abuse prescription drugs, too. Never done it myself. We can learn ABOUT things without doing those things. It’s a consistent issue around here going both directions that has to do with muddling up knowing about things and being able to do those things.

I don’t need to know how to ninja in order to know about ninjutsu.

conversely, I should never presume to know how to ninja just because I know about it,

if everyone internalized these two things, we’d have much more productive discussions.

Well the fact is rat...he talks like he’s an expert giving out advice about styles he’s never done...people are here looking for advice and looking for experienced peoples viewpoints...but they get this guy with no experience who just watches videos talking and trashing styles and affecting peoples view point by pretending he knows anything about this stuff. I’m not going to say anything about ninjitsu because I don’t know a damm thing about it so I’m not going to give a viewpoint that’s wrong because of my ignorance just to try and pretend I know what I’m on about.

rats done this before. He’s talked about to defend yourself against knives.....now that’s dangerous...if someone comes here and sees his uneducated advice about defending against knives and thinks he’s legit and they use that advice....well they get stabbed..

my view is don’t pretend you’re something your not. Don’t pretend you have experience when you don’t. It’s weak in my eyes. Rat has no interest in training he seems happy to watch YouTube....and that’s fine but don’t come on a forum talking trash about things you know nothing about that’s all I’m saying

 

[Steve]

Well the fact is rat...he talks like he’s an expert giving out advice about styles he’s never done...people are here looking for advice and looking for experienced peoples viewpoints...but they get this guy with no experience who just watches videos talking and trashing styles and affecting peoples view point by pretending he knows anything about this stuff. I’m not going to say anything about ninjitsu because I don’t know a damm thing about it so I’m not going to give a viewpoint that’s wrong because of my ignorance just to try and pretend I know what I’m on about.

rats done this before. He’s talked about to defend yourself against knives.....now that’s dangerous...if someone comes here and sees his uneducated advice about defending against knives and thinks he’s legit and they use that advice....well they get stabbed..

my view is don’t pretend you’re something your not. Don’t pretend you have experience when you don’t. It’s weak in my eyes. Rat has no interest in training he seems happy to watch YouTube....and that’s fine but don’t come on a forum talking trash about things you know nothing about that’s all I’m saying

you talk about things you’ve never done, too. Rat doesn’t pretend to be something he’s not. In fact, he gets a lot of crap for being more transparent than most. In my opinion.

And how many people in the world are actual experts in knife defense? I’m guessing far fewer than who believe themselves to be.

 

[Headhunter]

you talk about things you’ve never done, too. Rat doesn’t pretend to be something he’s not. In fact, he gets a lot of crap for being more transparent than most. In my opinion.

And how many people in the world are actual experts in knife defense? I’m guessing far fewer than who believe themselves to be.

You his daddy or something? You’re very defensive of him....no actually I don’t everything I say is based on what I’ve done. If there’s a discussion about how to use a samurai sword or about guns I don’t get involved because I don’t know that stuff.

I don’t know but at least they’ve trained and practiced it

 

[Steve]

You his daddy or something? You’re very defensive of him....no actually I don’t everything I say is based on what I’ve done. If there’s a discussion about how to use a samurai sword or about guns I don’t get involved because I don’t know that stuff.

I don’t know but at least they’ve trained and practiced it

Boom. The old, “you his daddy” gambit. Good one.

 

[drop bear]

Well the fact is rat...he talks like he’s an expert giving out advice about styles he’s never done...people are here looking for advice and looking for experienced peoples viewpoints...but they get this guy with no experience who just watches videos talking and trashing styles and affecting peoples view point by pretending he knows anything about this stuff. I’m not going to say anything about ninjitsu because I don’t know a damm thing about it so I’m not going to give a viewpoint that’s wrong because of my ignorance just to try and pretend I know what I’m on about.

rats done this before. He’s talked about to defend yourself against knives.....now that’s dangerous...if someone comes here and sees his uneducated advice about defending against knives and thinks he’s legit and they use that advice....well they get stabbed..

my view is don’t pretend you’re something your not. Don’t pretend you have experience when you don’t. It’s weak in my eyes. Rat has no interest in training he seems happy to watch YouTube....and that’s fine but don’t come on a forum talking trash about things you know nothing about that’s all I’m saying

What do you know about Rat to be talking trash about him?

I would say before you suggest he Is wrong you should have to have trained with him.

 

[drop bear]

This is what I liked. There was no sale speech. It was just raw realism.

But I digress. Thank you for your answer!

Doing Muay Thai?

Look there is going to be as much real self defense experience in that club as anywhere else.

Your likelihood of training with people who have been in real self defense situations is about the same.

 

[Headhunter]

.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Now i was not going to humour but...

I have in my signature "take nobodies word for it", you should be dubious of information given via the internet or by somone with no rapport or liability, at least without testing it.

Also, common sense applies to camoflauge&concealment, it doesnt take a genius to relaise "oh green probbly would work better here" or "oh everyone around me is wearing a suit, i might want to get one" or "oh this rock is big enough to hide behind". 3 main schools for this, tactical, bushcraft and survelience, now thats a big generalsiation with overlap, but the goals are usually diffrent.

i would think by merit of my obvious intrest in this subject to mean i have looked into it. So i can acedmically comment to some extent.

And how many people in the world are actual experts in knife defense? I’m guessing far fewer than who believe themselves to be.

Probbably the same amount of people who do proper ninjutsu.

Addendum: i would ask how many "ninja" now days have stalked somone successfully, assinisated somone, set fire to a house, gathered inteligence, built a bomb etc. Or even done a realstic and dynamic exercise for that.