The aikido thing

Yokozuna514

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Oh no, I get you alright. I agree with the point of using an empty cup to learn new techniques.

My point is that with bjj that isn't as important. If you have other stuff that works in a roll, it's helpful to bring it with you.
I'm intrigued by your supposition that bjj is different in this regard. Will put more thought into it the next time I have a chance to roll.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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'empty my cup'.
Here is a good example that for some philosophy, if you look at from one angle, it makes sense. When you look at from a different angle, it doesn't.

If today you are a Christian liberal, tomorrow you will not suddenly become a Muslim conservative. Why? Because there is a such thing that's called "faith".
 

Yokozuna514

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Here is a good example that for some philosophy, if you look at from one angle, it makes sense. When you look at from a different angle, it doesn't.

If today you are a Christian liberal, tomorrow you will not suddenly become a Muslim conservative. Why? Because there is a such thing that's called "faith".
I think language may be letting us down here because I have no idea what you are trying to say. I do not understand the analogy that you are trying to make.

If you are saying that two people can look at something and 'see' something completely different, I can understand that.
 

gpseymour

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Off the topic a little but I found this statement interesting. I come from the school of thought that if I am training in something new, I need to 'empty my cup' to be able to comprehend what is being taught to me. If I come in to the training with the perspective that I can use what I have learned from somewhere else, I may miss the subtleties of the lessons given. Not to say we can be separated from our past experiences but I believe one of the challenges of picking up a new understanding of an MA is to immerse oneself in the lessons and to NOT allow past experiences to colour them until such time as you have mastered the basics.
During class, that'd be true. If I took up BJJ and competed - or even just during "serious" rolling in class - I'd use everything I have. I think that's pretty much in line with the way a lot of folks view BJJ, anyway: use what works. With 30 years in NGA, it's a cinch something would show up in my rolling, or perhaps in my takedowns. If nothing else, I'd occasionally want to try some of it out to see how it holds up against other folks in class.
 

gpseymour

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BJJ is different in it's philosophical core than most systems though.

Most systems are a proprietary set of interconnected techniques and the (sometimes) strategies to use them.

BJJ is just an objective, or series of objectives. Get it to the ground, get superior position, get a submission. The best bjj techniques, or rather, the most effective bjj, is one that uses the most effective techniques. The origin and history of them isn't too important.
You said that better than I did.
 

gpseymour

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I'm not quite sure we are talking about the same thing. I only meant to say, that I feel it is best to go into a MA with no preconceived notions from other systems you have trained in.

I'm not certain if BJJ is any more different in its philosophical core than most systems. Never thought of it in those terms. On the surface, I would think every system can be described equally by stating they have an objective or series of objectives. I would also tend to agree that the origin and history isn't important but then again, I think I am missing the context of this statement so I'm not 100% sure if I agree or disagree with this final thought.
The main difference I see is the willingness to both absorb and reject techniques. Most systems - and I speak here mainly of "traditional" systems from Asia, since that's my main experience - are not fast to do the former, and extremely reluctant to do the latter.
 

gpseymour

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Here is a good example that for some philosophy, if you look at from one angle, it makes sense. When you look at from a different angle, it doesn't.

If today you are a Christian liberal, tomorrow you will not suddenly become a Muslim conservative. Why? Because there is a such thing that's called "faith".
I fail to see the link to MA in that. Can you help me out?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I think language may be letting us down here because I have no idea what you are trying to say. I do not understand the analogy that you are trying to make.

If you are saying that two people can look at something and 'see' something completely different, I can understand that.
Empty cut means to pour out all the content in that cup. What if that cup contains all your life saving?

pour-out.jpg
 

gpseymour

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Empty cut means to pour out all the content in that cup. What if that cup contains all your life saving?

pour-out.jpg
I'm still not seeing the link to MA. I can walk into a class and set aside, as best I can, all that I know, and just try to learn what they are doing. I've done it many times when visiting other schools, attending seminars, etc. All that stuff I set aside isn't gone - I just don't leverage it during that time, and can go back to it later to figure out how to work it with the new material.
 

Yokozuna514

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During class, that'd be true. If I took up BJJ and competed - or even just during "serious" rolling in class - I'd use everything I have. I think that's pretty much in line with the way a lot of folks view BJJ, anyway: use what works. With 30 years in NGA, it's a cinch something would show up in my rolling, or perhaps in my takedowns. If nothing else, I'd occasionally want to try some of it out to see how it holds up against other folks in class.
I am far from being able to say I have a great deal of experience in the BJJ community to know if this is true or not. It may very well be ingrained in the culture but I would think that would be more prevalent in 10th Planet Jiujitsu vs BJJ from the Gracies or Machado where they seem to prize unorthodox techniques. It's not my world so my opinion on it would be just as good as any other person who isn't immersed in the culture.
 

Yokozuna514

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The main difference I see is the willingness to both absorb and reject techniques. Most systems - and I speak here mainly of "traditional" systems from Asia, since that's my main experience - are not fast to do the former, and extremely reluctant to do the latter.
I think most of these things exist on a spectrum in any event. To say that BJJ has a more acceptable approach to this concept that other MA seems a little odd to me. True, there are MA that are very strict in terms of their interpretation of technique but I would think that lies in a spectrum too.
 

gpseymour

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I am far from being able to say I have a great deal of experience in the BJJ community to know if this is true or not. It may very well be ingrained in the culture but I would think that would be more prevalent in 10th Planet Jiujitsu vs BJJ from the Gracies or Machado where they seem to prize unorthodox techniques. It's not my world so my opinion on it would be just as good as any other person who isn't immersed in the culture.
Could be. My exposure is all around the periphery, so this is just what I've perceived from the folks I've had a chance to roll with or chat with. I will say there's one branch of the Gracies (Ryron and Rener, I think?) where there's a pretty well-scripted first part of the curriculum, and I think at least that portion is likely subject to the same tendencies as most TMA. Whether they hold that tendency later in the curriculum/ranks, I do not know.
 

gpseymour

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I think most of these things exist on a spectrum in any event. To say that BJJ has a more acceptable approach to this concept that other MA seems a little odd to me. True, there are MA that are very strict in terms of their interpretation of technique but I would think that lies in a spectrum too.
I can agree with all that. It would probably be more accurate for me to say "on average" they are more wiling to absorb/reject, as compared to other styles from Japan/of Japanese derivation. Probably there are some within BJJ that are less willing than the average of JMA, and some within JMA who are more willing than the average of BJJ.
 

Yokozuna514

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Empty cut means to pour out all the content in that cup. What if that cup contains all your life saving?

pour-out.jpg
Ok, yes, we both can agree with that definition. The analogy is meant to demonstrate that an empty cup can be filled with more knowledge than a cup that is full. Thus if you choose to 'empty your cup' you can learn more compared to someone who already has answers from training in another MA that may or may not be consistent to what is being taught in your new place.

What I am describing is not an 'ultimate truth' but an approach to learning. If you choose not to empty your cup, that would be your choice and I would be fine with that. It would be interesting to see how far these two approaches would take each participant over time to see how both approaches worked out in the end.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I'm still not seeing the link to MA.
When you apply a hip throw, your

- old teacher taught you that you need to control your opponent's elbow joint.
- new teacher teach you that you need to control your opponent's wrist joint.

What will you do right at that moment? Change your normal elbow control to wrist control? Or "have faith" in your elbow control and believe it's the right thing to do.

Empty cut seems to allow anything to be poured into your cut. I just don't think that's a smart thing to do.

Trying to ask Bill Maher and Rush Limbaugh to empty their cut when they talk to each other will never happen in this real world.
 
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drop bear

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I'm not quite sure we are talking about the same thing. I only meant to say, that I feel it is best to go into a MA with no preconceived notions from other systems you have trained in.

I'm not certain if BJJ is any more different in its philosophical core than most systems. Never thought of it in those terms. On the surface, I would think every system can be described equally by stating they have an objective or series of objectives. I would also tend to agree that the origin and history isn't important but then again, I think I am missing the context of this statement so I'm not 100% sure if I agree or disagree with this final thought.

Bjj as a system is advanced by the students rather than the founders.
 

Yokozuna514

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Bjj as a system is advanced by the students rather than the founders.
I still feel as if this statement can be applied to many MA and not only to BJJ. Kyokushin has been advanced by its students as well. There are probably many MA that have a large 'sport' aspect to them that prize innovation and functionality over the static repetition of movements created by the founder. That is my only contention here. BJJ does not hold the monopoly on the acceptance of innovation but this is also off topic as interesting as this discussion is.
 

Martial D

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I'm intrigued by your supposition that bjj is different in this regard. Will put more thought into it the next time I have a chance to roll.
Not just bjj. Pretty much any system with a primary focus on competition is the same.

Boxing, muithai, kickboxing, MMA, Sanda, wrestling etc.

The difference is rather than focusing on a syllabus, you are focussing on improving your game..which leads to innovation. This is in Stark contrast to many traditional systems that discourage changing the syllabus in any way, insisting that the parts that don't visibly 'work' actually have hidden, secret applications or some such thing, rather than bin them or modify them for effectiveness.

Pretty much any style that looks the same today as the day it was created(unless it was created today) fits that bill.
 

gpseymour

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When you apply a hip throw, your

- old teacher taught you that you need to control your opponent's elbow joint.
- new teacher teach you that you need to control your opponent's wrist joint.

What will you do right at that moment? Change your normal elbow control to wrist control? Or "have faith" in your elbow control and believe it's the right thing to do.

Empty cut seems to allow anything to be poured into your cut. I just don't think that's a smart thing to do.

Trying to ask Bill Maher and Rush Limbaugh to empty their cut when they talk to each other will never happen in this real world.
Try the new way to see why they like it. It might be better, or might just give mean option for whenI end up with a wrist instead of a elbow. I don’t think it needs to be a matter of faith.
 

gpseymour

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I still feel as if this statement can be applied to many MA and not only to BJJ. Kyokushin has been advanced by its students as well. There are probably many MA that have a large 'sport' aspect to them that prize innovation and functionality over the static repetition of movements created by the founder. That is my only contention here. BJJ does not hold the monopoly on the acceptance of innovation but this is also off topic as interesting as this discussion is.
Ah, if that was the impression I gave earlier (that this was unique to BJJ). I just consider BJJ a really good example of it.
 

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