Developing effective techniques

[twinkletoes]

I have nothing BUT respect for anyone who wants to improve themselves, their health, and their ability to defend themselves. It is not an easy undertaking.

I also have no ill-will towards any TMAists, ESPECIALLY kenpoka. This month marks 15 years in Kenpo for me, and I am continually having my eyes opened through contact with other martial artists of all kinds. I am learning how much there is left to learn, so to speak.

I also spent many many years convinced that kenpo was one of the most street-effective martial arts out there. For a time I thought otherwise. Now I am realizing that it IS the training, not the curriculum (to a point). I am making sure that all the classes I teach, even the kenpo ones, are alive and skill-building.

While I don't find myself teaching kata that much (gotta leave something for the other instructors ) I find that the kenpo is usually on the right track....

~TT

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by twinkletoes
I agree, and beginners should not just be introduced to contact, but also to resistance. There are too many instructors out there that are not training against resistance.

Instead of finding someone who will LET you do a tech. full out on them, find someone who is willing to try to STOP you from doing your tech, and willing to get hit full out in the process. Then see what develops.

The irony of the kenpo development is that when Ed Parker and his students were developing the techniques, they were canonizing they successful approaches. In making them scripted, the took away the process of development from future generations of students. Now people have pre-contrived answers handed to them, on the supposition that they work. It was the development phase, not the product, that brought them such skills. We are trying to become da Vinci by tracing the Mona Lisa.

~TT

I have to disagree with you there. Mr. Parker frequently said that the techniques were ideas, not rules. You should not ofllow them hard and fast but use them to develop your own style from the sytem he provided.

 

[twinkletoes]

Seig,

I think we are agreeing, in different words.

I think that the techniques were meant as ideas--as good examples to teach principles.

I think that since then, people have taken them too literally, and obsess over the details while missing the forest for the trees.

The goal is to use them to learn how one could improvise, but instead many people only learn to parrot.


~TT

 

[MJS]

True- The tech. should be taught as 1 solution to the problem, not the only solution. In a situation, you might find yourself doing part of a move from one tech. and another move from a different tech.

When I taught the techs. to the students, I tried to stress to them that I"m giving them a series of options. Its up to them to take those options and turn them into solutions. Many times, I'd have the group form a circle, with 1 student in the middle and the others attacking one at a time. At times, I'd give the middle student an attack that he/she had never seen before. They would stand there and look dumbfounded. I'd say to them, do you know how to punch, block, kick?? Well, of course they did, so I'd tell them to get creative and do something using the skills that they already had. Rather than rely on their instincts, they were relying or hoping to rely on a preset tech.

Mike

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by twinkletoes
So our suggestion now is to test all of it, in this alive format, with heavy resistance, until each of us experiences firsthand what works (for you, for your students, for advanced people, for beginners, etc.). Take notes. Make observations. See what works, and under what circumstances.

TT, maybe I didn't explain myself well, but that's exactly the way kenpo was developed and is exactly the way kenpo IS being developed right now.

The only problem I have with this is that not everybody is capable of being creative, and that's were the CV cames into play, imho.

Also, what may work for you, might not work for me. I had one of your unresisting partners showing me how he did a certain lock in a technique. Well, he didn't do the lock, he just pushed downwards and that was enough because of the weight difference (55 kg vs 75-80 kg). The point being made was that I had to do the lock properly if I wanted to make the tech work for me, while he didn't need to. So you have to take that into account when developing a technique that will work for everybody and has sound principles. OK, I think I have confused things more.... :S

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, I'll say it again.

1. This big new modern training is the way I was taught and am being taught and try to teach. It's clearly the way a lot of the, "old-fashioned," guys were taught, and how they teach.

2. What one should do as an advanced student, how one learned, and how one teaches, are three different things.

3. Fancy ideas and cool technologies are, too often, shoved upon beginning students. Who do not need to learn to be creative. They need to learn how to block and punch.

4. No form of training is perfect. No new set of skills will render us invulnerable.

5. There's a difference between, "creativity," and "fingerpainting." Premature inventiveness leads to fingerpainting, not creativity.

6. The set curriculum is set for good reasons that do not necessarily have anything to do with what is ordinarily thought of as fighting.

7. All too often, we are "improving," kenpo right out of existence--either by superadding junk, or improvising technique that doesn't logically fit concepts and principles, or eliminating sets and forms and techniques that don't immediately suit our little ideas of, "what works."

8. merely being a very good martial artist and knowing a lot doesn't make you Ed Parker.

But then, you all probably knew I thought this way already.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Robert: I have to agree with you on most of your points.

1. But probably not on the first point. There IS a fundamental difference in training methods between Kenpo, traditional martial arts, and sport combatives (please see my post at the beginning of this thread). Kenpo techniques (not sparring, but the 250 techniques), with hard contact on partners who don't fight back, is somewhere in between traditional training and sport combatives training. You are at one of the best schools out there (from everything I've ever heard about Mr. Tatum). Unfortunately, not everyone else is.

2. This is an excellent point. I'd love to hear more from you on this.

3. Now you are sounding like me!

4. Now you are sounding even more like me.

5. This is a great analogy. There is also a difference between creativity and tracing. Painting without creativity is just tracing.

6. I agree again.

7. I think there was another thread on this topic.

8. Right you are!

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Well, I'll say it again.

1. This big new modern training is the way I was taught and am being taught and try to teach. It's clearly the way a lot of the, "old-fashioned," guys were taught, and how they teach.

Yes, yes and yes
And I agree in the rest too, except on this one:

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
5. There's a difference between, "creativity," and "fingerpainting." Premature inventiveness leads to fingerpainting, not creativity.

Altamira's and other prehistorical caves are fingerpainted, and they're certainly creative.

Premature inventiveness might avoid you to grow and learn new things to an extent. That I'll concede you. But premature inventiveness might also lead to greater creativity at a later stage.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Actually, my understanding was that the Altamira, "paintings," were done with a variety of techniques, inclusing a sort of very early airbrushing...

But that's just me being nittley-pickley.

More importantly, so far, I haven't met anybody usefully "creative," who was pretty rigorously drilled...but I've met several, "creative," types who couldn't do basics to save their life...and at times, had elaborate jutifications as to why their sloppy technique was a good thing...

But then, I tend to be on the side of the anals in this...

 

[Kenpomachine]

I've seen people really creative here in Spain, and they all have good foundations and technique. On of them is on this forum (Sergio Jódar) and I think Clyde can atest to his technique level too.

So there may be a cultural side to creativity too?

 

[rmcrobertson]

Oops and geewhillikers, my bad. I'd meant to write that I hadn't seen anybody who was usefully creative who WASN'T well-drilled in basics.

And my point was, of course, that just telling students to go and be creative is not only worthless, it's actively bad for their "creativity..."

"Creativity." Now there's a word to be avoided at all costs--along with "combat," and "Bruce Lee," and, "fill your cup," and...

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Robert, Kenpomachine:

The debate between you two appears to be about when to introduce creativity. What are the prerequisites to development of technique creativity? At what belt/proficiency level should creativity be introduced and how should it be introduced. I have my opinion (of course), but I'd like to hear yours first.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Robert, Kenpomachine:

The debate between you two appears to be about when to introduce creativity. What are the prerequisites to development of technique creativity? At what belt/proficiency level should creativity be introduced and how should it be introduced. I have my opinion (of course), but I'd like to hear yours first.

Perhaps the question should be... when do we teach the equation formula. To make this stuff work on the street it has to be right away.
Sean

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Good point, Sean.

When do you teach the equation formula. After that, when and how do you teach students to be totally spontaneous in their self-defense techniques?

 

[Michael Billings]

I "teach" the Equation Formula very, very early - as do most EPAK schools; then you try to teach them to rearrange, insert, delete, prefix, or suffix first, as these are "easier" for beginners.

Now when do they go from Primitive, to Mechanical? Can they defend themselves before they reach the Spontaneous stage? Sure they can! Most Brown belts are Mechanical most of the time ... and I have seen Black Belts the same way, it is just that their "Mechanical" has gotten very, very fast.

The true use of the Equation Formula from early on gives you another Kenpo Tool (credit to Dennis Conater), along with strong basics ... to begin building a truely Spontaneous and Effective technique fighter (this as v. a "brawler")

Just my thoughts, but yall helped me catagorize this process.

OSS
-MB

 

[rmcrobertson]

Actually, I have no interest in such a debate, because I absolutely don't believe in introducing creativity in the sense apparently under discussion at any stage whatsoever. I believe in learning kenpo, drilling drilling drilling drilling, working the forms, and letting Nature take its course. Why? because if you do that, your personality will emerge in a meaningful way. It can't help it.

So when would I introduce creativity? At what rank? meaningless question. Sorry, but I fundamentally disagree with the entire premise.

And as for the, "equation formula..." it's just a metaphor, ya know, not real math. All it says is that within a rigidly-arranged structure, there's room to rearrange in several ways...to shuffle the deck of cards. But that's a structural combinatory that works like shuffling cards or DNA...it is very much NOT "fingerpainting."

Even Mozart got beat into endless practice, endless work as a "child prodigy." And a lot of Beethoven sounds like--as B. said--rearrangements of Mozart.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

I agree with Robert about the equation formula: it's another example of Kenpo analysis paralysis if you try to apply it too methodically to too much material. It IS a good tool if used sparingly though.

OK, so let's go with Robert's other point that creativitiy is not a positive for the developing student. What about spontaneity? When does everyone think a student should be able to spontaneously respond to an attack? When they respond spontaneously, do you expect them to respond with a canned technique, to improvise ala the equation formula, or come up with something...er...creative? Again, I have a strong opinion here but I'd like to hear from everyone else first.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Actually, I have no interest in such a debate, because I absolutely don't believe in introducing creativity in the sense apparently under discussion at any stage whatsoever. I believe in learning kenpo, drilling drilling drilling drilling, working the forms, and letting Nature take its course. Why? because if you do that, your personality will emerge in a meaningful way. It can't help it.

So when would I introduce creativity? At what rank? meaningless question. Sorry, but I fundamentally disagree with the entire premise.

And as for the, "equation formula..." it's just a metaphor, ya know, not real math. All it says is that within a rigidly-arranged structure, there's room to rearrange in several ways...to shuffle the deck of cards. But that's a structural combinatory that works like shuffling cards or DNA...it is very much NOT "fingerpainting."

Even Mozart got beat into endless practice, endless work as a "child prodigy." And a lot of Beethoven sounds like--as B. said--rearrangements of Mozart.

Robert, Robert, Robert.
There you go again. The equation formula is not a metaphore it is an actual tool to use when a prearranged sequence of movements( now there is a meaningless metaphor) starts to go awry. That usualy happens the second you start moving. All your moves have counters you know! The equation formula allows you to counter the counter. Mozart was a manic deppresive genious and one day another such as Jimmi Hendrix will come along and rewrite the rule books. I love the way you just dismiss Kenpo concepts that don't fit your dogma and to that I say, "excuse me but my karma just ran over your dogma"
Sean

 

[Kenpomachine]

Ok, we have yellow belts doing some free basics at their exams. Are they prearranged moves? No. They're only recquired to do punches and kicks and stances and blocks that they know and imagine they're being attacked. That's creativity at the lower belts.

Of course, what is expected of higher ranking belts is more variety and better technique. And then, against opponents, that it works. Maybe they're not long techniques, and maybe they're not as complex. But it helps you go outside the stablished materials and began being creative.

Techniques for championships have a lot of hours of work behind them, so they're different from the above drills, which deal more with reaction. That's different from moving in a spontaneous, primitive or mechanical stage, though.

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Oops and geewhillikers, my bad. I'd meant to write that I hadn't seen anybody who was usefully creative who WASN'T well-drilled in basics.

Yes, but creativity may be built with basic drills.

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
And my point was, of course, that just telling students to go and be creative is not only worthless, it's actively bad for their "creativity..."

"Creativity." Now there's a word to be avoided at all costs--along with "combat," and "Bruce Lee," and, "fill your cup," and...

Agreed, but you have to learn to use the tools kenpo has to go and explore other things and make your own combinations for moves that aren't in the curriculum.