Delayed Sword Gone Bad?

[MJS]

Just for some clarification. This clip was showing why DS should be done for a lapel grab and not a punch. I do not think the intention of Clyde, was to discredit people. Another thing to keep in mind regarding the takedown, is that not everyone is going to be an expert grappler. Your typical untrained opponent is not going to execute a perfect double leg. Josh could very well have had some prior grappling background, so that could very well explain why he landed in the position he did. Is everyone that attempts this technique, and I'm not just talking about the folks on the forum, going to be skilled in the sprawl? I look at this clip as a 'what if'. What if the person does this or that? This IMO is why we would graft or flow into another technique.

Mike

 

[PatMunk]

There is nothing wrong with the Technique Delayed Sword if it is applied correctly. It didn't look like the person doing the technique did it with any power or proper technique.

Someone shooting in for a grappling takedown while someone was delivering a powerful front kick will/should be stopped by the kick. Delivering a powerful front kick to the groin or as they shoot in to the face will stop the attack long enough to finish with the swordhand or other strikes.

Any technique can be make to fail if the person doing the technique doesn't deliver the technique for real or if the instructor sets them up with do this technique knowing they are going to do something that the technique isn't designed to work against.

This is why everyone needs to perform all their self-defense techniques like they are doing them for real ALL the time. It's hard on Uki's but you won't find yourself in this situation.

 

[MJS]

Here's an SL4 version of DS done slowly to demonstrate their technique:

Delayed-Sword

Thanks for posting this! Its always nice to see another variation. Perhaps Doc, Dave or Bode could comment and expand a bit more on the movements in this version, compared to the usual way of executing DS.

Mike

 

[Doc]

There is nothing wrong with the Technique Delayed Sword if it is applied correctly.

Any technique can be make to fail if the person doing the technique doesn't deliver the technique for real or if the instructor sets them up with do this technique knowing they are going to do something that the technique isn't designed to work against.

This is why everyone needs to perform all their self-defense techniques like they are doing them for real ALL the time. It's hard on Uki's but you won't find yourself in this situation.

Amen to that Brudda.

 

[JamesB]

Thanks for posting this! Its always nice to see another variation. Perhaps Doc, Dave or Bode could comment and expand a bit more on the movements in this version, compared to the usual way of executing DS.

Mike

It's just a clip I saw posted in another forum, can't remember when/where I found it now..

This clip would probably be a good topic for discussion in the neutral-bow / footwork thread. In particular pay very close attention to the specific footwork in the clip, the transitions through forward bows, the very specific PAMing of the foot as the defender steps backwards, and again at the moment of impact with the inward block.

 

[Doc]

It's just a clip I saw posted in another forum, can't remember when/where I found it now..

This clip would probably be a good topic for discussion in the neutral-bow / footwork thread. In particular pay very close attention to the specific footwork in the clip, the transitions through forward bows, the very specific PAMing of the foot as the defender steps backwards, and again at the moment of impact with the inward block.

No inward block here James. It is an inward downward hammerfist strike.

There are many reasons I’m reluctant to post videos. Partly, because without instruction, they are meaningless. The general perception that you can learn from video is a false one without prior significant knowledge of that which you are viewing, and what to look for. It is for this reason; we only use them as ‘video notes’ for those taught directly by an instructor.

First, “Delayed Sword” was taught to me by Mr. Parker as a lapel grab, not a punch. However, we do have a ‘punching’ version known as “Sword of Doom,” so we do entertain both scenarios.

Our philosophy about grabs and pushes are simple. It is an ‘after-the-fact’ response we are training for. Treating grabs and pushes, as ‘attempts’ is ludicrous. Sooner, or later all of the mortal students will be actually grabbed or pushed, and should prepare for it with proper training and an in-depth understanding of the dynamics of these type assaults.
Pushes and grabs are defined by there action that includes the momentary ‘Contact Manipulation’ element.

Specifically for ‘Delayed Sword,’ when you are grabbed there is an inherent ‘Push of Aggression’ that is part of the elements of the assault. Attackers do not walk up to you and reach up carefully to not touch your body, and only grab your clothing. They ‘slam’ there hand into your chest knocking you backwards and than seize as the intimidation tactic part of the aggressive action. Of course the assumption here is that you are caught ‘off guard,’ and the action has ‘already occurred’ when you recognize you’re been assaulted. Unlike punches, a push or grab has already occurred and requires contact. A person may ‘punch’ at you with no physical contact. Only “attempts’ may be treated as punches not requiring contact.

Because of this aggressive action, you will be knocked off balance, and will instinctively move one, or both feet to regain your balance and control as your hands move upward instinctively to where the contact was made. That is the reason for the first step AFTER the push.

The second step is to regain control and to solidify your stance and includes the PAM (Platform Aligning Mechanism), as well as the ‘Outward Downward Index’ to engage and solidify the upper and lower platforms together.

The hands are then Indexed upward. This is not only part of the alignment process, but it is also a part of the “Psychology of Confrontation” component That gives the attacker you have ‘given up’ and he has effectively intimidated you. Meanwhile everything has been compensated for, aligned, recruited and presented for ”Initial Retaliation.”

The victim than pivots into a neutral bow with a right inward across the face to access the ‘Startle Reflex,’ and ‘PNF Response’ that drops into a hammer-fist to the head of the humerus that corresponds essentially with L-1 with a PAM. This is a devastating strike capable of ending the confrontation alone. The leg on that side will collapse partially or fully, and strength will leave the right arm and hand.

The right hand maintains contact and controls the depth and distance and shifts to a “front-to-back alignment.”

Dragging up in preparation for a Gauging Front Kick, and controlling the distance with the right hand, kicks between the legs to lower height. After retrieving the kick, Index the depth control right hand and plant forward with a hand sword to the side of the neck at a 45-degree angle downward with a BAM.

There are other subtleties in mechanisms as well, but not actually worth discussion in writing without physical instruction.

“All that you see, is not all that you see.” – Ron Chapél

 

[MJS]

Our philosophy about grabs and pushes are simple. It is an ‘after-the-fact’ response we are training for. Treating grabs and pushes, as ‘attempts’ is ludicrous. Sooner, or later all of the mortal students will be actually grabbed or pushed, and should prepare for it with proper training and an in-depth understanding of the dynamics of these type assaults.
Pushes and grabs are defined by there action that includes the momentary ‘Contact Manipulation’ element.

See, IMO, I think that this is where some confusion may lie. You have one side who is using the thought that you're using here...once contact is made, a reaction happens. Yes, if the person is caught off guard I certainly can see how this theory applies. The second side is thinking along the lines of not necessarily always beign caught off guard, therefore, if the attackers arm is beginning its movement towards the defender, why wait until contact is made?

Specifically for ‘Delayed Sword,’ when you are grabbed there is an inherent ‘Push of Aggression’ that is part of the elements of the assault. Attackers do not walk up to you and reach up carefully to not touch your body, and only grab your clothing. They ‘slam’ there hand into your chest knocking you backwards and than seize as the intimidation tactic part of the aggressive action. Of course the assumption here is that you are caught ‘off guard,’ and the action has ‘already occurred’ when you recognize you’re been assaulted. Unlike punches, a push or grab has already occurred and requires contact. A person may ‘punch’ at you with no physical contact. Only “attempts’ may be treated as punches not requiring contact.

Because of this aggressive action, you will be knocked off balance, and will instinctively move one, or both feet to regain your balance and control as your hands move upward instinctively to where the contact was made. That is the reason for the first step AFTER the push.

The second step is to regain control and to solidify your stance and includes the PAM (Platform Aligning Mechanism), as well as the ‘Outward Downward Index’ to engage and solidify the upper and lower platforms together.

The hands are then Indexed upward. This is not only part of the alignment process, but it is also a part of the “Psychology of Confrontation” component That gives the attacker you have ‘given up’ and he has effectively intimidated you. Meanwhile everything has been compensated for, aligned, recruited and presented for ”Initial Retaliation.”

The victim than pivots into a neutral bow with a right inward across the face to access the ‘Startle Reflex,’ and ‘PNF Response’ that drops into a hammer-fist to the head of the humerus that corresponds essentially with L-1 with a PAM. This is a devastating strike capable of ending the confrontation alone. The leg on that side will collapse partially or fully, and strength will leave the right arm and hand.

The right hand maintains contact and controls the depth and distance and shifts to a “front-to-back alignment.”

Dragging up in preparation for a Gauging Front Kick, and controlling the distance with the right hand, kicks between the legs to lower height. After retrieving the kick, Index the depth control right hand and plant forward with a hand sword to the side of the neck at a 45-degree angle downward with a BAM.

There are other subtleties in mechanisms as well, but not actually worth discussion in writing without physical instruction.

“All that you see, is not all that you see.” – Ron Chapél

Good points! Watching the video clip, I noticed many of the things that you mentioned in the other thread about movement and the Neutral Bow. Now, I know that there has been countless discussion on the 'motion theory' of Kenpo, etc. etc., but obviously you have a different way of looking at these techniques. Would you say that the motion version is taking any of these things that you speak of in the above quote, into consideration?

Mike

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Now, I know that there has been countless discussion on the 'motion theory' of Kenpo, etc. etc., but obviously you have a different way of looking at these techniques. Would you say that the motion version is taking any of these things that you speak of in the above quote, into consideration?

Mike

I won't pretend to be able to speak for Doc, but based on my own exposure to kenpo, and limited exposure to SL4, no. If you reference the perspective of a different starting position, you reach different conclusions, through different avenues of reasoning. Many of the driving concepts in SL4 aren't found in mainstream kenpo; or, better yet, aren't focused on there. Many ideas that inform SL4 are mentioned in the encyclopedia, and kenpo fans will argue to death over what they mean, and what splitting hairs over them looks like. Anatomical alignment is in kenpo; few use the corrective mechanisms that create it, preferring to interpret AA as HWD or body geometry issues only. And so on.

SL4 training is rather heady compared to mainstream; there is more packed into a tech conceptually and technically, and it takes longer to get. As such, it does not lend itself well to large classes making lots of money. Too many notes for the hobbyists ears. Classes are small, intense, long, hard on old bones, and packed with new info, as well as review of old. If you fly-on-the-wall an evening at Doc's, you'll not only get some real eye-openers and aha's around "classical" kenpo theory, applied, but exposed to some new ideas which, left on your own, you could spend years injecting into your kenpo to make ongoing improvements.

Different starting position, seeking different goals = different material. My own opinion; I could be wrong.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Doc]

See, IMO, I think that this is where some confusion may lie. You have one side who is using the thought that you're using here...once contact is made, a reaction happens. Yes, if the person is caught off guard I certainly can see how this theory applies. The second side is thinking along the lines of not necessarily always beign caught off guard, therefore, if the attackers arm is beginning its movement towards the defender, why wait until contact is made?

I know the train of thought. "Super ninja squirrel I'll never be caught off guard idiot school." I've seen cops confront suspects when they anticipate the possibility and still get caught off guard. This "total awareness" all the time is simply to justify the fact the most instructors have no idea how to deal with the attack when it actually happens. On another note, only an idiot would wait to be pushed or grabbed if he saw it coming. That is equally ludicrous. The real question is; Which method better prepares you for real world confrontations? Pretending you will always see the push or grab coming and react with cat-like ninja reflexes all the time, or admit your own mortality? These techniques were designed to force you to explore the consequences of the attacks and work out solutions because Mr. Parker couldn't spend the time so he gave you the hint. Much like all the locks and throws and takedowns suggested but never taught. It was your instructor responsibility to inject common sense into your training. Parker laid the commercial framework. Instead lazy instructors turned everything into attempts. It didn't matter. Punches, grabs, pushes, kicks, everything. How dumb is that. "I'm going to let you grab me, but I'm not going to REALLY let you grab me." Wink wink!

Muhammad Ali got in the ring with the heads up that Joe Frazier wanted to rip his head off, so he was definitely paying attention, but still got hit. You don't really think you could go about your daily life on a day-to-day basis and no one ever have the opportunity to actually grab or shove you do you? Would you bet money on it? How about your life?

People have to believe in the "attempt" school of thought, because if they don't, they won't have a teacher.

Would you say that the motion version is taking any of these things that you speak of in the above quote, into consideration?

Depends on the teacher, but in general no, not even close.

 

[HKphooey]

I originally learned Delayed Sword for a lapel grab, then a punch, then an attempted push. I then used the the 50-60+ other kenpo techniques that be used against similar attacks (glancing salute, triggered salute, lone kimono, and so on...). Isn't that the nature of our kenpo training? Anticipate as many scenarios as possible and have a solution for each. By design, a punch, a lapel grab and a punch each have different levels of force and destinations. The result of each movement determines our next movement and the level of retaliation. A push to me is more of an agressive attempt and the result of a failed reaction results in a step backwords (and a slight upper torso pivot). From there I have many options I have been taught. With a punch, I have more to lose. If I do not make contact with a forceful block - I get a shot to the face, throat or sternum. I agree my first course of action in this type of attack is meet it with a solid inward/diagonal hammerfist. I think one other key point is what is the left hand doing throughout this type of attack.

In the case of this video, the right inward block could have easily transitioned into a solid hammerfist to the temple or base of the skull. The left hand could have also been used the force the attacker's head downward.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

Let me just say that for the record it looks like Clyde is trying to make Josh look bad . Looking at the video I would say that if you only think in the frame work of "hey that wasn't DS this or DS that" then you can say what you will. However, in my eyes Josh ended up in a dominate position and from there Clyde would have been fish food. It looked like to me that Josh did a pretty dam good job countering. Good job in my book.

Too many EPAK folks out there are to focused on doing technique lines and not enough time really going at it and finding out what works for them. Technique lines are great in the begining but you have to start learning how to counter and re-counter sometime. As Lee Wedalke and Zack Whitson have all told me many times. It is all there in the system but you need a qualified instructor to show you how and then it is up to you to figure out for yourself how to make it work for you. Mr Parker gave us all the answers. We just have to ask the right questions.

 

[celtic_crippler]

As much as it pains me to admit Clyde would have a valid point...he does in a way. Ugh...that hurt. A standard technique used by grapplers is to feign with a punch prior to shooting for a leg(s). This draws your attention away from what they're really up to so they can hopefully avoid a knee to the face. LOL.

The hole in his argument is that a properly trained Kenpoist will (1) not "reach" for the block. If it's not going to make contact we will not fool with it so the feign is ineffective. (2) a properly executed "block" (I use the word "block" loosely as most Kenpoist consider them strikes after a certain stage of development) will alter the attackers zones in such a way that moving down and in toward you leg will be improbable or unlikely.

So...practice your basics! Over and over and over. If you execute the technique properly, you probably won't have to worry about the shoot. But that doesn't mean you should not train in ways to defend it or be aware that something like this could happen if you execute techniques ineffectively.