Deflecting Hammer

[MJS]

Technique for discussion:

Deflecting Hammer-Right Front Kick

1. An attacker from 12 o'clock executes a right front thrust kick at your side.

2. From a right neutral bow, push drag back to 6 o'clock as you simultaneously execute a right downward block against the outside of your attacker's kicking leg. (This block should turn your attacker's back to you and possibly hurt them as you stretch them out.)

3. Execute a left thrusting check to their right arm (between the shoulder and biceps). As you do this, your right block (still in motion) will cock itself at your side.

4. Shift (push drag) towards 12 o'clock as you execute a right inward elbow strike to your attacker's face.

Thought we could discuss differences in this technique, as well as any possible counters or counter strikes our attacker can do.

For myself, I perform this technique from a neutral position, rather than the neutral bow stance. The rest of the technique remains the same for me.

Mike

 

[MJS]

As a visual reference point, here is Master Tatum performing this technique.

http://www.ltatum.com/movies/Week5/TipOfTheWeekMedW5.html

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

1) I start from a non-ready positon instead of a ready position.
2) I Block on 45 degree angle which doesn't turn the attacker much, but instead "sucks him in"
3) I use a downward riding check instead of a thrusting check so that I don't disturb the attackers momentum and let them collide full force with my elbow. This downward check also drops their height lower which helps me because I'm short and it automatically knocks the right arm down if it were coming in as a punch.

Opponent Defense #1 - opponent uses left hand to parry the inward elbow. We can borrow that orbit, hammerfist the kidney, and buckle their right leg out for the takedown.

Opponent Defense#2 - opponent spins from the kick in an effort to deliver a left spinning backfist. Our left check picks up the back fist while the elbow hits the back of the head. Convert the elbow to an outward claw and latch on to the opponent's face. Execute a stomp kick with the left foot and plant back to point of origin while pulling the opponent's left arm down with the left hand while pulling down on the haed with the right hand. Break the opponent's arm across the right knee as we drop to a wide kneel.

Opponent Follow's up with a right hook after the kick - Check & catch the punching arm with the left hand(near the bicep) and deliver the elbow. Execute a right buckle while allowing the left hand to slide to the opponent's wrist. Follow up with any technique that has the opponent down and we are holding on to an arm such as Tripping Arrow or Falling Falcon.

 

[hongkongfooey]

I like this technique. We do it from both a natural stance and a fighting stance. We don't block per se, but more or less parry the blow, travelling from 11 to 5 to pull the attacker into the elbow strike.

 

[Ping898]

Technique for discussion:

Deflecting Hammer-Right Front Kick

1. An attacker from 12 o'clock executes a right front thrust kick at your side.

2. From a right neutral bow, push drag back to 6 o'clock as you simultaneously execute a right downward block against the outside of your attacker's kicking leg. (This block should turn your attacker's back to you and possibly hurt them as you stretch them out.)

3. Execute a left thrusting check to their right arm (between the shoulder and biceps). As you do this, your right block (still in motion) will cock itself at your side.

4. Shift (push drag) towards 12 o'clock as you execute a right inward elbow strike to your attacker's face.

Thought we could discuss differences in this technique, as well as any possible counters or counter strikes our attacker can do.

For myself, I perform this technique from a neutral position, rather than the neutral bow stance. The rest of the technique remains the same for me.

Mike

I was taught about the same, I perform the technique from a neutral position, when initially learned, you start with your hands up, about at your chest height, as id you were trying to talk someone out of attacking you, trying to show you are no threat, and the final move instead of the elbow to the face, I was taught to do an elbow to the rib cage aiming for the floating rib if possible.

 

[KenpoTex]

1) I start from a non-ready positon instead of a ready position.
2) I Block on 45 degree angle which doesn't turn the attacker much, but instead "sucks him in"
3) I use a downward riding check instead of a thrusting check so that I don't disturb the attackers momentum and let them collide full force with my elbow. This downward check also drops their height lower which helps me because I'm short and it automatically knocks the right arm down if it were coming in as a punch.

This is the way I do it as well. I like the deflecting block (our term for this motion which is more of a parry than a block) because, as you said, it really "sucks him in" and makes him crash into that elbow strike.

as an added bonus, after the elbow I like to step-through retreating with a lead-leg pulling sweep (right leg), do a front crossover sweep with my left leg (by now they're almost doing the splits) and then stomp down with a side kick to their extended leg.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

as an added bonus, after the elbow I like to step-through retreating with a lead-leg pulling sweep (right leg), do a front crossover sweep with my left leg (by now they're almost doing the splits) and then stomp down with a side kick to their extended leg.

OUCH!!!! Mean man, simply mean

 

[jaybacca72]

i like to graft into the back breaker from this technique,it has a nice flow to it.
later
jay

 

[JamesB]

wasn't this technique discussed recently in another thread? maybe it was on KT can't remember...

anyhow the descriptions so far leave me wondering:

1. If we don't push-drag/step-drag off the center-line to 7 o'clock how do we avoid the incoming punch?

2. If we don't execute a 'hard' block at 90 degrees to the attacker's leg and cancel his width, turning him around, how do we avoid the incoming punch?

In my experience, when the downward-block is executed along with a PAM and a slap-check, the result is so effective that the attacker is spun right around. For a comitted attack (i.e. non-compliant), this unbalances the attacker to such a degree that his forward-momentum almost makes him topple into us so there's no need to 'suck him in' with a parrying motion.

I'd also say that a push-drag puts us at a range where the downward block can be correctly structured for its maximum effectiveness. Then drag-step in with an inward elbow to the back of the head.

 

[hongkongfooey]

wasn't this technique discussed recently in another thread? maybe it was on KT can't remember...

anyhow the descriptions so far leave me wondering:

1. If we don't push-drag/step-drag off the center-line to 7 o'clock how do we avoid the incoming punch?

2. If we don't execute a 'hard' block at 90 degrees to the attacker's leg and cancel his width, turning him around, how do we avoid the incoming punch?

In my experience, when the downward-block is executed along with a PAM and a slap-check, the result is so effective that the attacker is spun right around. For a comitted attack (i.e. non-compliant), this unbalances the attacker to such a degree that his forward-momentum almost makes him topple into us so there's no need to 'suck him in' with a parrying motion.

I'd also say that a push-drag puts us at a range where the downward block can be correctly structured for its maximum effectiveness. Then drag-step in with an inward elbow to the back of the head.

In my experience the attacker does turn and fall into the elbow strike.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

wasn't this technique discussed recently in another thread? maybe it was on KT can't remember...

anyhow the descriptions so far leave me wondering:

1. If we don't push-drag/step-drag off the center-line to 7 o'clock how do we avoid the incoming punch?

2. If we don't execute a 'hard' block at 90 degrees to the attacker's leg and cancel his width, turning him around, how do we avoid the incoming punch?

In my experience, when the downward-block is executed along with a PAM and a slap-check, the result is so effective that the attacker is spun right around. For a comitted attack (i.e. non-compliant), this unbalances the attacker to such a degree that his forward-momentum almost makes him topple into us so there's no need to 'suck him in' with a parrying motion.

I'd also say that a push-drag puts us at a range where the downward block can be correctly structured for its maximum effectiveness. Then drag-step in with an inward elbow to the back of the head.

In my studies what you describe has value but is taught in another technique. And avoiding the punch isn't hard in either case, what is your left hand doing just standing around?

 

[sealth]

This is a very good technique.i dont think your intention should be to spin your attacker around in an attempt to disrupt his posture.having thrown an extended kick ,he or she would have already lost posture.also if you spin your attacker rather than let his kick just miss you that will be more space you"ll have to gain befor you can elbow.timing is very important.your elbow should reach its target before your attackers leg hits the ground.thats just my opinion ,good luck to all

 

[hongkongfooey]

Welcome Sealth. You make a good point. Many people jump off the line to get out of the way of the kick, and can't make up the space in time for the elbow strike. You also have to wonder how many people have attackers that deliberatly kick to miss their opponet, kicking past them, not at their midsection. It used to happen at my old school a lot.

 

[MJS]

I was taught about the same, I perform the technique from a neutral position, when initially learned, you start with your hands up, about at your chest height, as id you were trying to talk someone out of attacking you, trying to show you are no threat,

Yes, at my last school, we hand the hands up in the beginning as well.

and the final move instead of the elbow to the face, I was taught to do an elbow to the rib cage aiming for the floating rib if possible.

That works just as well IMO. If thats the target that available at the time, why not take advantage of it!

Mike

 

[MJS]

1) I start from a non-ready positon instead of a ready position.
2) I Block on 45 degree angle which doesn't turn the attacker much, but instead "sucks him in"
3) I use a downward riding check instead of a thrusting check so that I don't disturb the attackers momentum and let them collide full force with my elbow. This downward check also drops their height lower which helps me because I'm short and it automatically knocks the right arm down if it were coming in as a punch.

Opponent Defense #1 - opponent uses left hand to parry the inward elbow. We can borrow that orbit, hammerfist the kidney, and buckle their right leg out for the takedown.

Opponent Defense#2 - opponent spins from the kick in an effort to deliver a left spinning backfist. Our left check picks up the back fist while the elbow hits the back of the head. Convert the elbow to an outward claw and latch on to the opponent's face. Execute a stomp kick with the left foot and plant back to point of origin while pulling the opponent's left arm down with the left hand while pulling down on the haed with the right hand. Break the opponent's arm across the right knee as we drop to a wide kneel.

Opponent Follow's up with a right hook after the kick - Check & catch the punching arm with the left hand(near the bicep) and deliver the elbow. Execute a right buckle while allowing the left hand to slide to the opponent's wrist. Follow up with any technique that has the opponent down and we are holding on to an arm such as Tripping Arrow or Falling Falcon.

Awesome follow-ups James!!! I'll have to work those! :ultracool

Mike

 

[MJS]

wasn't this technique discussed recently in another thread? maybe it was on KT can't remember...

anyhow the descriptions so far leave me wondering:

1. If we don't push-drag/step-drag off the center-line to 7 o'clock how do we avoid the incoming punch?

2. If we don't execute a 'hard' block at 90 degrees to the attacker's leg and cancel his width, turning him around, how do we avoid the incoming punch?

In my experience, when the downward-block is executed along with a PAM and a slap-check, the result is so effective that the attacker is spun right around. For a comitted attack (i.e. non-compliant), this unbalances the attacker to such a degree that his forward-momentum almost makes him topple into us so there's no need to 'suck him in' with a parrying motion.

I'd also say that a push-drag puts us at a range where the downward block can be correctly structured for its maximum effectiveness. Then drag-step in with an inward elbow to the back of the head.

When I do this, the opponent is going more off to the 4-5 o'clock position, so they're really not turned completely around for me. As for the punch, it should be picked up with the left hand.

Mike

 

[JamesB]

In my studies what you describe has value but is taught in another technique. And avoiding the punch isn't hard in either case, what is your left hand doing just standing around?

When I do this, the opponent is going more off to the 4-5 o'clock position, so they're really not turned completely around for me. As for the punch, it should be picked up with the left hand.

so are you guys teaching a specific parry/block with the left hand in anticipation of the attacker's punch?

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

so are you guys teaching a specific parry/block with the left hand in anticipation of the attacker's punch?

No, the left hand is high guarding the head and if another attack is perceived it is responded to. In other words the left hand is placed in a preparatory cock for a block or parry.

 

[MJS]

so are you guys teaching a specific parry/block with the left hand in anticipation of the attacker's punch?

James pretty much summed it up. When you're doing this tech. how do you have your hands positioned? Just trying to get a better feel for the variations out there.

Mike

 

[JamesB]

James pretty much summed it up. When you're doing this tech. how do you have your hands positioned? Just trying to get a better feel for the variations out there.

Mike

ok here's what I've been taught, hopefully my description is accurate enough:

I do this technique from 'neutral'. The arms are raised high to frame the attack. The lead (right) arm in particular is chambered high in preparation for the downward-block.

As the kick comes in, I push-drag off center-line. As the right foot plants with a PAM, I simultaneously execute the right downward-block along the 9-3 line, along with a left 'slap-check' to the right shoulder. So at that point in time, my left hand is specifically placed onto the top of the right shoulder, bracing my upper body and providing stablity to the blocking arm. I'm in a right-neutral-bow still (but now positioned off the line of attack). Should the attacker be punching also, this placement of the left hand allows it to be easily brought up into a parry/check position.

I'm not expecting to have the need to deal with any punch though - firstly because I've moved off center line, but also because the attacker will be spun round further: the specific angle the block takes (perpendicular to the attack), along with the 'slap-check' and 'PAM' makes this possible. So he'll find it really difficult to make any kind of effective punch at me.

I'm still having difficulty seeing how push-dragging back along the 12-6 line is going to do you any favours: The kick is still coming straight at you, right? When the blocking arm makes contact with the attacker's leg, it will strike the top of the leg because your arm will need to be across your own center-line in order to catch the leg. The amount of force that is available to block the leg sideways is limited because the blocking arm is not (in my mind) ideally placed in this position. Because you are striking the top of the leg, I see you redirecting the stronger kicks into your hip area. ouch.

I would say, a downward-block is most effective when it has completed it's 'full travel' and is extended out to your side. By trying to 'downward block' at one's center-line instead of at the side, the blocking arm has barely begun it's movement. Doesn't seem very strong to me.... The parrying motion that has been described so far would also have less of an effect on the attacker. As he's 'pulled in' to you, would this not aid his punching potential rather than take it away? his width has not been cancelled...

I'm sticking to my guns: Move off-center, cancel his width, take away his weapons. All good kenpo principles. By not doing this, one would always have to deal with the potential incoming punch. Sure, you can do it, but the technique becomes much more risky for a beginner. Give people something simple and effective at first, and play around with variations and 'parrying blocks' (yuck) after they have a firm grasp of the basics.

just my opinion of course..