Deficiencies in WSL teachings

[LFJ]

Impossible! I've read what Guy B. and LFJ have said and this can't be! Hundreds, maybe thousands of people have left the other flawed branches of WC/VT to see the light and train WSL-PB-VT. Nobody ever leaves.... alive. Bwa-haa-ha-ha-ha-haaa

lol... So, I need a copout then...

Let's see. This guy was actually a WTer until a few years ago with less than 10 years total experience. Not sure how much he knows about VT.

But alright. I'll give you him, because for every inexperienced guy who jumps ship, how many with 15-20+ years of experience and teaching in a former lineage have come in the other direction?

So many they need not be paraded in Facebook posts to bolster reputation. The sheer number speaks for itself.

Don't believe the hype from PB students. But seriously, it always looked to me like PB is very good at what he does. In most cases, someone doing a hard system of WCK well, will beat someone doing a softer system of WCK not so well. I guess this PB student met, in Sergio, someone who could negate that hard system.

Most people won't get to meet someone with very good internal skills, so for those people they're happy with what they have (be it hard VT from PB, or whatever other lineage). It works for them, and that's good enough. Of course, it works until it... doesn't.

But most people get by with what they have, so it's all good.

If this guy thought VT was a "hard system" then he clearly didn't get very far. I would definitely not say WSLVT is a "hard" system. It is very aggressive in attack, but doesn't rely on muscular force, rather biomechanical leverages. Both YM and WSL were pretty small in stature but could handle giants with ease.

To me internal martial arts is about being able to receive and issue unusual high force effortlessly.

Under this definition, you could say WSLVT is "internal". We just don't deal with already debunked Qigong nonsense as an explanation or marketing strategy.

 

[WTchap]

To be fair, the description of WSLVT being a "hard" system was my word choice. Hard, as opposed to soft. The guy from the seminar described the previous WT/WC/VT he'd studied as working "with muscular force. It didn´t matter how fast or dynamic the styles where, force was always a crucial criteria for the functionality."

I've never studied with PB, so I wouldn't know first hand, but the person who wrote about his experiences was/is, I believe, a direct student. No?

YM was certainly small in stature. WSL, I always thought, looked quite sturdy (certainly he looked quite strong).

Fully agree with you regarding "debunked Qigong" and its theory. No internal art practice today should be discussing this/working with it as a model. It's just not required to understand how internal arts work and should be trained.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Under this definition, you could say WSLVT is "internal". We just don't deal with already debunked Qigong nonsense as an explanation or marketing strategy.

In a Darren Elvey seminar I went to, he said something about how you can't get into some WSL inner circle gathering or group if you believe in qigong or something like that. But yeah I would agree that if you are finding the right structures and shapes against force that don't cause noticeable muscular tension, then that is internal.

There are a lot of internal martial arts that talk about chi flow and know all the terms and stuff, but can't actually do any structure tests against a resisting partner. I held an internal martial art meet up at one point to exchange with other internal martial artists. I was disappointed. People and even teachers turned up who knew a lot of application and all the terms and stuff but couldn't do any force demonstrations. Couldn't hold their stance against pressure. Couldn't move limbs against pressure etc. Bottom line is you have to be able to do this stuff.

 

[LFJ]

@WTchap I don't know the guy. So I can't say what his experiences were. But as far as my understanding, we certainly place a lot of emphasis on power development to make a punch that counts. After all, you won't get far with a weak punch. It's not about pure muscular force though, more biomechanical leverages which allow smaller people to accomplish the same goal. @Wing Chun Auckland calls this internal. I'm fine with that. I usually avoid that term though, as it tends to carry some baggage that I completely reject.

 

[Juany118]

@WTchap I don't know the guy. So I can't say what his experiences were. But as far as my understanding, we certainly place a lot of emphasis on power development to make a punch that counts. After all, you won't get far with a weak punch. It's not about pure muscular force though, more biomechanical leverages which allow smaller people to accomplish the same goal. @Wing Chun Auckland calls this internal. I'm fine with that. I usually avoid that term though, as it tends to carry some baggage that I completely reject.

That was kinda where I was going (your last bit). In the end the ideas of "building Chi" and such sound like metaphysical mumbo jumbo. In the end it is really just understanding and controlling how your body is positioned in 3 dimensional space. Once you do this, rather than using raw strength you can use the principles of leverage, vectors or force etc to perform actions, whether they be defense or attack, linear or circular.

I think one of the problems is that people sometimes mistake what is often called "hard" and "soft" with "external" and "internal." the linear arts tend to be stereotyped as "hard" and the "soft" as circular. However something that is linear can use the principles of leverage, vectors of force etc, those things we associate with internal arts. Something that is circular can be about simply building momentum to intensify raw strength. I think this leads to some false assumptions on occassion. In the end Internal Martial Arts describe their principles using language that existed before Newton and the laws of physics were explained scientifically.

Sorry if that seemed overly simplistic but I have been up for 24 hours now and am getting punchy.

 

[LFJ]

I agree. Sometimes WSLVT is called "hard" because it is an imposing attack method. But it can be called "soft" or "internal" if you are defining those as using principles of leverage, force vectors, etc..

Although we don't go force against force, we are also not soft and yielding as to be passive and reactive. However, if someone thinks we are using pure muscular force to accomplish our tasks, they are simply wrong.

 

[Juany118]

I agree. Sometimes WSLVT is called "hard" because it is an imposing attack method. But it can be called "soft" or "internal" if you are defining those as using principles of leverage, force vectors, etc..

Although we don't go force against force, we are also not soft and yielding as to be passive and reactive. However, if someone thinks we are using pure muscular force to accomplish our tasks, they are simply wrong.

This is also very much the school of Cheung's "Traditional" WC. It seems that a lot of the idea as to what is internal vs external is as much appearance and semantics (is it described scientifically or spiritually and/or metaphorically) vs how it is actually being achieved mechanically.

 

[WTchap]

"Sometimes WSLVT is called "hard" because it is an imposing attack method. But it can be called "soft" or "internal" if you are defining those as using principles of leverage, force vectors, etc."

Principles of leverage, force vectors, etc., are all good (many/most arts use them) - and the internal arts use them too; but for me at least, they aren't what make the internal arts "internal."

If any here know the person from WSLPBVT who attended Sergio's seminar, it would good to hear more from him about his impressions/experience.

 

[LFJ]

Internal is not a term I would ever choose to describe WSLVT anyway. I just couldn't see a problem with the definition that was given above.

It would be interesting to hear more from that person, in particular how much instruction he received under PB since it seems as though WT was/is his base, same as Sergio.

 

[kakkattekoi]

@guy b may I ask what lineage u r training from?

 

[geezer]

....I usually avoid that term (internal) though, as it tends to carry some baggage that I completely reject.

Yeah, well I usually argue with what you have to say! ....but in this instance I agree totally.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

I don't really have a problem with the term "internal" because its really about stuff happening inside you. Force goes through you, you make adjustments to the pressures you feel etc. You have mental models and ways to think about how to move or initiate a move that have a completely different effect. These are all things that can't been seen from someone outside.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't really have a problem with the term "internal" because ...

This person tried to define "internal" as "Dantian movement". If your power generation has to do with your "Dantain movement", you have "internal", otherwise you don't.

Can you rotate your Dantain like this?

 

[guy b.]

@guy b may I ask what lineage u r training from?

WSL VT

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

This person tried to define "internal" as "Dantian movement". If your power generation has to do with your "Dantain movement", you have "internal", otherwise you don't.

Can you rotate your Dantain like this?

I don't agree that this is the only way to define internal skills. This is the first time I have heard a definition that points exclusively to dantien usage. Of course I am aware of dantien rotation etc. But I would just classify it as one level or type expressoin of internal martial arts.

The end result is what matters. How you affect people and whether it relies on strength to do it. I get that dantien rotation etc. is a big thing and you can make your movements initiate from that, but that is not the only way to generate great force without strength.

 

[guy b.]

I don't agree that this is the only way to define internal skills. This is the first time I have heard a definition that points exclusively to dantien usage. Of course I am aware of dantien rotation etc. But I would just classify it as one level or type expressoin of internal martial arts.

The end result is what matters. How you affect people and whether it relies on strength to do it. I get that dantien rotation etc. is a big thing and you can make your movements initiate from that, but that is not the only way to generate great force without strength.

Like LFJ, I would try to avoid the word internal when referring to VT, or any MA really, because it seems to be a way for all sorts speculation and odd theory to appear. Of course you can't move without using muscles, your dantien is not a big rotating ball below your navel, and qi doesn't flow along meridians within your body. That kind of explantion leads nowhere.

I have heard quite an interesting explanation of what "internal" means from my teacher in Yiquan, which is a simplified form of Hsing Yi, and this is what I tend to subscribe to. Of course it is a completely physical mechanism. Looking at what CST did with his VT, it is believable that he did much the same thing YQ does in terms of "internal" force development. PM me if you are interested and I will send you a link.

 

[WTchap]

@guy b

“Your dantien is not a big rotating ball below your navel.”

Yes, it's not really a ball (no ball actually exists) but the mental image of a ball is very useful in training the dantien – and sometimes, because of the play of muscles/tissues in use, it can feel ‘like a ball’ if you have good development and if someone were to put a hand on your stomach while you were moving this area.

The dantien, as an area/place, is a junction for various lines in the body. Exercises with it work to pull, stretch and rotate the center, and this aids in utilising connections throughout the rest of the body. Kind of like taking up slack. Some people talk about a ‘body suit’, the idea that, as when wearing a t-shirt for example, when you pull on the material, all parts of it start moving. The harder you pull and stretch it, the more the areas you'e not directly pulling, start moving.

So Dantien and Mingmen work is never really something isolated, you use it in conjunction with everything else you're training in the internal arts.

Dantien 'rotation' can only really be worked on when you’ve developed this area/tissues (inside the frame of the pelvis). A good explanation of this, physically, is: “The major muscle groups of the center, in this instance, are the Diaphram forming the top of the Centre, The Psoas Major/Minor and lower Erector Spinae at the back, The Illiacus, internal obliques, external obliques, the external oblique aponeursis, transverse abdominus, the lower rectus abdominus as well as all of the Tendinous tissues that are linking, covering and associating these various muscles. Finally, the base of the centre is composed of all the pelvic floor muscles and associated tissues.”

IMO, the above definition covers lower dantien, middle dantien and also the mingmen point. Earlier in the thread I was mentioning how the internal arts use 'pairing' (yin-yang, heaven-earth, and this is really something connected to dantien work. So to use one of my favourite quotes (again ) Daito Ryu/Aikido's Ueshiba referred to ‘Heaven and Earth’ and the ‘floating bridge', and said, “The working of the attraction point, between In and Yo (Yin and Yang), is the birthplace of all techniques.”

Basically, in one sentence he summed up what I just wrote in four paragraphs.

 

[guy b.]

Dantien 'rotation' can only really be worked on when you’ve developed this area/tissues (inside the frame of the pelvis). A good explanation of this, physically, is: “The major muscle groups of the center, in this instance, are the Diaphram forming the top of the Centre, The Psoas Major/Minor and lower Erector Spinae at the back, The Illiacus, internal obliques, external obliques, the external oblique aponeursis, transverse abdominus, the lower rectus abdominus as well as all of the Tendinous tissues that are linking, covering and associating these various muscles. Finally, the base of the centre is composed of all the pelvic floor muscles and associated tissues.”

IMO, the above definition covers lower dantien, middle dantien and also the mingmen point. Earlier in the thread I was mentioning how the internal arts use 'pairing' (yin-yang, heaven-earth, and this is really something connected to dantien work. So to use one of my favourite quotes (again ) Daito Ryu/Aikido's Ueshiba referred to ‘Heaven and Earth’ and the ‘floating bridge', and said, “The working of the attraction point, between In and Yo (Yin and Yang), is the birthplace of all techniques.”

So basically moving using musculature

 

[WTchap]

Well, at the very start of the process, yes. But I suppose the key is in developing what you're moving, and how, and then in turn how you use that in relation to other connections. It's a Chinese martial art thing... there's always layers of complexity behind the simplicity

 

[guy b.]

After the start of the process, what do you use to move besides your muscles?