Lineage Battle Question

[wingchun100]

I wonder: how did this all start? What would WSL think of it? In the case of certain lineages, I KNOW how it started: from what I have heard, William Cheung claimed he learned the "true" style, and everyone else was taught crap. If that is true, then I know that lineage dispute started with him. However, I have never heard a similar thing about WSL.

So in his case, and in the case of other lineage disputes, how did this all get started? Was it from the top, or was it from the next level down where people took what the head of the lineage said as gospel truth that could not be changed?

I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on that.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

.. and so began the meta-lineage wars, a never-ending argument about which lineage started the never-ending arguments about which lineages are legitimate.

 

[Xue Sheng]

.. and so began the meta-lineage wars, a never-ending argument about which lineage started the never-ending arguments about which lineages are legitimate.

If it ain't Xuefu...it ain't true...no matter WHAT lineage it is

 

[LFJ]

You will learn nothing from stirring up another argument.

This thread will be of no help to the forum or anyone who participates in it.

If you are unable or uninterested in experiencing the different lineages and forming your own educated opinion, just drop it.

 

[wingchun100]

.. and so began the meta-lineage wars, a never-ending argument about which lineage started the never-ending arguments about which lineages are legitimate.

No, I never said which lineage started it. I asked about where this might have come from within the lineages that claim to be the only "true" Wing Chun. Aside from William Cheung, the only people I have seen doing this are in the WSL lineage. I mean, I have learned the Ip Ching lineage, and now I learn Leung Sheung. I've never personally heard anyone from these two claim to be the only "true" WC. However, just because I haven't heard it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

[geezer]

@OP --Nothing unique to WC/VT/WT. Sometimes it's about money, ...or ego and prestige, ...or just a need to feel that you have the special, true stuff. That can come from the top down. My old Sifu for example. Or it comes from the bottom up --as with many practitioners I've known. It's very common, and not really worth going into.

Honestly, the only way to eliminate this kind of thinking would be if we had a legitimate and widely accepted format for testing our skills. Competition. That would reinforce what works, and perhaps more importantly, show that anybody can be beat!

 

[wingchun100]

@OP --Nothing unique to WC/VT/WT. Sometimes it's about money, ...or ego and prestige, ...or just a need to feel that you have the special, true stuff. That can come from the top down. My old Sifu for example. Or it comes come from the bottom up --as with many practitioners I've known. It's very common, and not really worth going into.

Honestly, the only way to eliminate this kind of thinking would be if we had a legitimate and widely accepted format for testing our skills. Competition. That would reinforce what works, and perhaps more importantly, show that anybody can be beat!

You're right. Sometimes I need to filter the questions I wind up posing on here.

My apologies. If we could delete threads, I would. Then again, I could always edit the initial post so that it makes the rest of the thread look like nonsense!

 

[Headhunter]

There's always going to be nonsense like this in martial arts. Every style has it and if any claim they don't they're lying its a sad part of it. Best thing to do is not get into it just do your thing train and get better and keep going

 

[Cephalopod]

Muaaaaaaaaad-DEEEP!!!

What? Oh. Sorry.

I clicked on the thread looking for battle-questions with which I may smite my foe.

 

[wingchun100]

Aiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii-keebah! Gymkata!

 

[Xue Sheng]

If you want a proper CMA lineage battle you absolutely must, at some point, say to the other guy "huā quán xìu tǔi"
Which is a Chinese martial arts insult used in North China (do not know about the south) it basically translates to "You martial arts is pretty, like a flower"

 

[Cephalopod]

Them's fightin' words!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Then
...Wǒ gěi nǐ wǒ de quántóu

(I give you...MY FIST!!!)

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If you want a proper CMA lineage battle you absolutely must, at some point, say to the other guy "huā quán xìu tǔi"
Which is a Chinese martial arts insult used in North China (do not know about the south) it basically translates to "You martial arts is pretty, like a flower"

Then
...Wǒ gěi nǐ wǒ de quántóu

(I give you...MY FIST!!!)

I thought the proper form of a challenge was:

Lips begin moving, no sound emerges ..
... badly dubbed voice begins: "Your Flying Panda Kung Fu is pretty good,"
sneers
"but it's no match for my White Dragon Mantis Fist!"
waves arms dramatically, causing whipping sound effects, assumes fighting stance.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I thought the proper form of a challenge was:

Lips begin moving, no sound emerges ..
... badly dubbed voice begins: "Your Flying Panda Kung Fu is pretty good,"
sneers
"but it's no match for my White Dragon Mantis Fist!"
waves arms dramatically, causing whipping sound effects, assumes fighting stance.

Ironically, at my first Shifu's school a friend of mine there was from Beijing and he and I use to spar and we would do things exactly like that.... and he was REAL good at it... because he could speak both english and mandarin

 

[JR 137]

I thought the proper form of a challenge was:

Lips begin moving, no sound emerges ..
... badly dubbed voice begins: "Your Flying Panda Kung Fu is pretty good,"
sneers
"but it's no match for my White Dragon Mantis Fist!"
waves arms dramatically, causing whipping sound effects, assumes fighting stance.

I miss Kung Fu Theater

 

[KangTsai]

Just witnessing the text-based arguments a few months back, I was thinking that I've read more interesting and rational debates about the best way to weaponise a ceiling fan with the use of highly exotic adult toys (true story, /k/ is a magical place).

 

[LFJ]

Then
...Wǒ gěi nǐ wǒ de quántóu

(I give you...MY FIST!!!)

 

[wckf92]

Whoooz da mastah???

...Sho-Nuff!

 

[JP3]

I find all of this historical reference stuff extremely interesting, as my own Tomiki Aikido which I've arrived at later in life has a very similar set of schismata.

O-Sensei Morihei Ueshiba was a martial arts genius, I think that's well accepted. His back ground and experiences seem to change from person to person with whom one discusses his life, his "forming" arts are relatively generally-accepted to be primarily his Daito-ryu aikijujutsu, followed up by Kito-Ryu jujutsu (really interesting grappling, give-way, gentle art for anyone who likes that stuff), then also splashes of shinkage-ryu, goto-ha yagyu-ryu, tenjin shin'yo-ryu jujutsu, and judo (bet you didn't know that. If you did, you are part of an approximate 0.1% of martial artists who do..., so good on you.).

Since Ueshiba-san was teaching for so long (teaching career lasted all of 5 decades), there's this huge list of really notable folks who learned directly from him, e.g. Tomiki, Inoue, Mochizuki, Shioda, Tohei, Hisa, Abe, Nishio, & Saito amongst others... All advanced teachers in their own right.

But... problem was, and is, that the info which Ueshiba was teaching to Tomiki and Shioda, just as an example is WAY different from what it was that he transmitted to the later in life students, such as Tohei.

Funny thing is, all of it "works." Some is just... more gentle, and takes a Lot longer to get a grip on.

So, long story longer, this history stuff is neat to read about. Just don't fight about it. We weren't there, we don't have good records and it's not worth your blood pressure going up over.