Deficiencies in WSL teachings

guy b.

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Post your view please. No offence will be taken. I welcome the opportunity to learn from other perspectives.
 
Only people who have spent some time studying WSL VT could really contribute here. That counts me out. Next time you want to know about deficiencies in LT WT I could contribute ...but I'd mostly be talking about my own deficiencies. Funny, now that I train an offshoot, NVTO VT, I have the same deficiencies. You can change association or even the lineage but you're stuck with the same old practitioner!
 
I'm certainly no master and I've never actually trained in WSLVT so I'm not really qualified to say anything, but the more I think about the idea of pivoting on the heels and initiating motion at the hips, the less it makes practical sense to me, even taking the idea of not giving up the centerline into account. KPM talks a little bit about it in this video and basically sums up the problems I have with it:


However, that doesn't mean that I'm going to dismiss that aspect of WSLVT entirely -- when seeing different ways of practicing things, unless what's on display is completely absurd, I think there's a 95% probability that the people practicing differently simply know something that I don't.

Plus, pivoting on the heels is literally the only aspect of WSLVT, from what amount of it that I've seen, that I actually have a problem with.
 
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KPM talks a little bit about it in this video and basically sums up the problems I have with it:

Most of what he argues against seems to be a straw man, unless he was actually taught that way in other lineages.
 
Most of what he argues against seems to be a straw man, unless he was actually taught that way in other lineages.

I'm not at all sure if that clip by KPM that Marnetmar posted is particularly directed at WSL VT. Some of it's criticisms apply to a number of Ip Man branches. Many WC/VT guys do the "slouch" in their stances. The Ho Kam Ming lineage is another group that turns on the heels. In LT WT I learned to turn on the "center of the foot" as KPM advocates, but we shift weight completely from side to side, or to the rear foot if advancing. Also, we started out with hips tilted forward and constant adduction of the thighs which sounds a bit like his "locked qua" --whatever that is.

So I see that clip as KPM sharing what he has found to be optimal in his experience. I probably agree with about half of what he said. Regardless it was a good, thought-provoking video. At least for me, since I've gotten to the point where I'm trying to think for myself rather than follow a sifu's every word, no matter how good he may be. The real question for me now is, given all my faults, what will actually work for me.

Oh and another thing...@KPM: Tell me about that dummy. The base set up looks very practical. Is it water or sand filled? I have a decent Koo Sang teak dummy at the house, but am looking for something economical and portable to use at the gym I rent space at.
 
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Oh and another thing...@KPM: Tell me about that dummy. The base set up looks very practical. Is it water or sand filled? I have a decent Koo Sang teak dummy at the house, but am looking for something economical and portable to use at the gym I rent space at.

The Warrior: Warriors - Phase 1

You can put either sand or water in the base. I have sand in mine and it is pretty stable. It has wheels on the back side of the base. So you can pull the trunk out of the base, tip the base up onto its back, and roll it to where you want it. You could it even take it down and roll it into a closet or storage space when not in use if you are at an open gym where you wouldn't want people messing with it. The trunk is thick PVC covered in a layer of padding and marine grade vinyl. The arms and leg are hardwood. The padding is great! Between the padding and a pair of MMA gloves I can work mine almost as hard as I would a heavy bag. The base is very stable and will tip under heavy pressure but has never fallen over. There is just enough "play" in the socket where the trunk fits into the base that the dummy has some give to it somewhat like a dummy mounted on the wall with cross-slats. It isn't like hitting a tree trunk.

The one draw-back is that the base tends to slide across the floor. But I think it if was placed on a rubber mat, it would take care of it.
 
The Warrior: Warriors - Phase 1

You can put either sand or water in the base. I have sand in mine and it is pretty stable. It has wheels on the back side of the base. So you can pull the trunk out of the base, tip the base up onto its back, and roll it to where you want it. You could it even take it down and roll it into a closet or storage space when not in use if you are at an open gym where you wouldn't want people messing with it. The trunk is thick PVC covered in a layer of padding and marine grade vinyl. The arms and leg are hardwood. The padding is great! Between the padding and a pair of MMA gloves I can work mine almost as hard as I would a heavy bag. The base is very stable and will tip under heavy pressure but has never fallen over. There is just enough "play" in the socket where the trunk fits into the base that the dummy has some give to it somewhat like a dummy mounted on the wall with cross-slats. It isn't like hitting a tree trunk.

The one draw-back is that the base tends to slide across the floor. But I think it if was placed on a rubber mat, it would take care of it.

Keith, what about the height? Is there any way to adjust it? I'm on the short side of average at around 5' 8". but I have students who are both shorter and taller.
 
Oh... now back to the OP. I probably watch too much Youtube. Anyway, I have found some of the clips by David Peterson to be useful. Recommended some to students. Not too much I disagree with. But then I didn't know that he was so inferior a teacher to some others! :p
 
Post your view please. No offence will be taken. I welcome the opportunity to learn from other perspectives.
I don't know if this is a system weakness or a training issue but what I see that's common in many branches is super dedicated to controlling the center line, and not good foot movement.
 
I don't know if this is a system weakness or a training issue but what I see that's common in many branches is super dedicated to controlling the center line, and not good foot movement.
Since your hands may not be in your center all the time, to protect your center from outside in by using circular move to counter linear move such as to use double hay-makers to counter jab and cross is not emphasized enough in training.
 
Keith, what about the height? Is there any way to adjust it? I'm on the short side of average at around 5' 8". but I have students who are both shorter and taller.

No, that's another draw-back. You can't change the height. It is set for an average height of about 5'10" by the way I personally like the dummy mounted. Some like it higher or lower. You could make it higher by simply placing the whole thing on a raised base board, or lower by putting a raised base board in front of it to stand on.
 
Oh... now back to the OP. I probably watch too much Youtube. Anyway, I have found some of the clips by David Peterson to be useful. Recommended some to students. Not too much I disagree with. But then I didn't know that he was so inferior a teacher to some others! :p

The only people I have EVER heard have anything bad to say about David Petersen....is Guy and LFJ! ;)
 
Many WC/VT guys do the "slouch" in their stances. The Ho Kam Ming lineage is another group that turns on the heels.

The slouch, as he shows it, is a remedy to leaning back as a result of incorrect pelvic tilt. I guess only virgins don't know how to execute a proper pelvic tilt without screwing up their spines.

I don't know about HKM lineage, but shifting on the heels in training doesn't mean we're hobbling around with weight over our heels all the time as he suggests, and in fighting, we're not just going to be standing in place and pivoting anyway.

Before you go about legitimately criticizing something, you gotta understand how it's done, the training purpose, and how it actually relates to fighting...
 
I don't know if this is a system weakness or a training issue but what I see that's common in many branches is super dedicated to controlling the center line, and not good foot movement.

Sounds like probably both.

WSLVT doesn't do the classic one leg forward with both hands posed on the center line though...

Our footwork is very mobile and spatial domination can be attained without trying to stubbornly occupy the center line. Doing so actually makes fighting more difficult.
 
The way it looks to me is that WSL style has forgone some of the force generation and stance concepts in favour of a higher focus on fighting and application.

For the purpose of WSL VT there is nothing really deficient. As Darren Elvey described to me in a seminar, WSL streamlined his wing chun to make it more effective in urban combat. The purpose of WSL VT is to shut down and finish a street attack in the shortest time possible. To that extent, it meets its goal effectively IMO.
 
Many of the wing chun I have seen has very little structure, that is they cannot hold any pressure. They always speed up to compensate for this. Then I trained CST that is all about structure pressure and force. From a CST perspective, it is quite annoying rolling with certain Wing Chun types because they tend to just want to speed up. They can't hold any pressure or dont want to. Also they consider every little touch on your body at hit. Even if there is nothing behind it.

When I first exchanged with WSL guys, it was a breath of fresh air because I could actually roll with them. They had good springy structure. And they were about getting a good solid clear hit in with their body behind it. Not just flick someone and say that that was an opening. I learned a lot from cross training with them. I had holes in my structure which got fixed.

I think they have a healthy balance between some good structural understanding and applying it in application. I believe WSL didn't go too deep into the force generation and structure side of things because he felt that only a certain amount is neccessary in combat. I believe the WSL guys I trained with probably had a similar mindset. And to be honest they have a good point.

That said, IMO there is a limitation to how powerful you can get in this system. I can see both views and they are both right. They might say they don't need anymore structure or force to be effective in fighting and that might be correct.
 
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I would say that power develops slowly over a long time. If the expression of ultimate power is your immediate goal then VT is probably not the best vehicle for that. There are more advantageous and obvious ways to use the body to that end. For a beginner it seems impossible to exert KO force from VT structure, but over time with the poon sau, lap sau, stepping drills, wall bag, pole and other training it starts to become possible until eventually large amounts of force can be delivered from that same structure as understanding and physical capacity develops. I would say that the main focus of the system is safety, simplicity (working without thinking) and resilience under pressure, and this is why the development of effective force takes a long time.
 
I would say that power develops slowly over a long time.
Many CMA systems (such as long fist, praying mantis, Zimen, WC, ...) use that argument - power develops slowly over a long time. Many CMA system (such as Baji, Chen Taiji, XYLH, ...) provide simple methods to develop power within short period of time (such as 3 months).

Someone has cross trained long fist and praying mantis for many years. When he started to train the Baji system, he suddenly felt that he finally understood "power generation". His public comment "Baji helps him to open his eyes." made both of his long fist teacher and his praying mantis teacher mad at him big time.

Some simple power generation drills do exist in some of the CMA systems if you search hard enough.

Here is an example of Chen Taiji power generation drills.

 
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As Darren Elvey described to me in a seminar, WSL streamlined his wing chun to make it more effective in urban combat. The purpose of WSL VT is to shut down and finish a street attack in the shortest time possible.

That's a peculiar thing to say, as that is the purpose of VT to begin with. WSL didn't make it so.

I believe WSL didn't go too deep into the force generation and structure side of things because he felt that only a certain amount is neccessary in combat.

WSLVT training places an enormous emphasis on force generation, developed in stages. After all, VT is useless if you can't make the punch count.

As far as "holding pressure", there is partner training to develop solid structure to support the punch in motion from any position, but we aren't looking to "hold pressure" during a fight in some sort of grappling or stand-your-ground strategy. We want to be mobile and attack.

A lot of force and structure training is there, but it is mostly abstract. We keep an offensive mindset for free fighting.
 
That's a peculiar thing to say, as that is the purpose of VT to begin with. WSL didn't make it so.

Yes, that is true. I meant to say, "He streamlined his wing chun to make it combat effective in a short time."

WSLVT training places an enormous emphasis on force generation, developed in stages. After all, VT is useless if you can't make the punch count.

As far as "holding pressure", there is partner training to develop solid structure to support the punch in motion from any position, but we aren't looking to "hold pressure" during a fight in some sort of grappling or stand-your-ground strategy. We want to be mobile and attack.

A lot of force and structure training is there, but it is mostly abstract. We keep an offensive mindset for free fighting.

Sometimes the holding can help you work out the path of force and movement to help you when it is more dynamic and clashy. Effecting or controlling you partner's balance is an important skill and that apparently YM was an expert at.
 

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