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- #101
Ok, thanks for reply. We don't have our weight on our heels either
Deficiencies in WSL teachings
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Ok, thanks for reply. We don't have our weight on our heels either
- Thread Starter
- #103
One from KPM:
KPM said:This little jewel of a comment was just made on another forum. It has nothing to do with the dynamic duo, but was simply summing up someone else's impression of WSL lineage people. I thought I would leave it here for your enjoyment.
IMO... (Oh God, I can already feel the responses coming)... WSL lineage guys have a certain mindset that comes directly from the way they train. It's a relatively simple approach to Wing Chun, with no complicated or sophisticated power generation methods, and is based around heavily training a fairly simple set of drills that maintain a line, cut angles, etc., and with a focus on disengaging (so placing very little emphasis, sometimes none at all, on sticking). It's simple, and it works well, especially when playing with people from 'other WCK' lineages. Why? Because a 'simple, trained well' method often beats 'detailed, but longer to master' methods. Because of this, many people from the WSL lineage seem to have a feeling of superiority. Simply put, WSL guys often do what they do better than other Wing Chun lineages doing what they do. To me, WSL guys often look a little stiff in their movements, and often use a fair amount of muscle, but... they make it work.
Not sure if that last quote of KPM's posted above by Guy is as much a statement of a "deficiency" as an observation about what WSL VT seems to emphasize relative to some other branches. Saying, "...they make it work." is not really pointing out a deficiency. 
Along the same line as what KPM seemed to be referring to in the quote above, I have noticed over the years that some of the WSL-PB-VT posters on this and "the other" forum have insisted that WSL-VT doesn't use certain specific techniques seen in other branches of VT/WC. The arguments sometimes go beyond functionality and in WSL-PB-VT there seems to be an even stronger than typical WC belief that less is more.
Not only have certain WSL-PB-VT practitioners posted that there is no tan-da in their system, I believe I also recall some folks (perhaps Kevin G?) discounting hooking punches and uppercuts as not proper VT. And de-emphasizing elbows too, perhaps? Regardless, the emphasis was always less is more. IMO some of these attitudes can be taken too far. But if it works, I don't think I'd call it a deficiency. Perhaps just a narrower focus?
Along the same line as what KPM seemed to be referring to in the quote above, I have noticed over the years that some of the WSL-PB-VT posters on this and "the other" forum have insisted that WSL-VT doesn't use certain specific techniques seen in other branches of VT/WC. The arguments sometimes go beyond functionality and in WSL-PB-VT there seems to be an even stronger than typical WC belief that less is more.
Not only have certain WSL-PB-VT practitioners posted that there is no tan-da in their system, I believe I also recall some folks (perhaps Kevin G?) discounting hooking punches and uppercuts as not proper VT. And de-emphasizing elbows too, perhaps? Regardless, the emphasis was always less is more. IMO some of these attitudes can be taken too far. But if it works, I don't think I'd call it a deficiency. Perhaps just a narrower focus?
^^^^^ The word I have used in the past is "one dimensional." I still think that is accurate. I also think that a system that is that "simplified" and "specialized" has no need for all of the typical content of the Wing Chun curriculum. They have made training with the dummy or the pole over-kill, since all they get out of them are "abstract" ideas. It doesn't take an entire dummy form to teach you how to punch properly! They will say I am wrong because I haven't studied their system and don't know how they view their dummy form. Maybe that's true. But if it takes the entire typical Wing Chun curriculum to learn to do what is summarized above, then they haven't simplified things as much as they think!
It's just adhering to the VT principles of simplicity, directness, and efficiency.
^^^^^ The word I have used in the past is "one dimensional." I still think that is accurate. I also think that a system that is that "simplified" and "specialized" has no need for all of the typical content of the Wing Chun curriculum...
...But if it takes the entire typical Wing Chun curriculum to learn to do what is summarized above, then they haven't simplified things as much as they think!
You can't accurately describe what you have 0 clue about.
The system hasn't been simplified or specialized. It is what it is. Every element of the system has a clear place and purpose in the process of developing fighting skill. It's the actual fighting that is simple compared to the training system. Train hard, fight easy.
dudewingchun
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- #109
There's a guy on the internet with some clips which I am not a fan of, but no idea if representative. Have never experienced anything from Barry Lee.
Joy said:
I would have to give WSL and CST both the benefit of the doubt here.
By all accounts, they were very humble people while HC and VK could be quite arrogant.
All students of CST said he was immovable. He delved so deeply into structural force development, and yet he was soft? I reckon he was like WSL, who was always careful not to embarrass other sifus when invited overseas for seminars and so toned things down quite a bit.
PB looked at this video below and estimated WSL was giving probably no more than 5%, and that's with a follower of his, adjusted to his skill level at the time. "Touching hands" with some random guy at an overseas seminar who has an entirely different concept of VT, he was probably giving 1%, if that, being nice and having fun.
And Joy walks away feeling good about himself and his teachers!
Juany118
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That video actually makes no sense to me, in so far as the pelvis issue because I do what he says should make me slouch, and it simply doesn't. You are tilting your pelvis forward to straighten the spine, not pelvic thrusting like you are doing the....
Wing Chun Auckland
Green Belt
I met a couple Victor Kan guys once. They do use a lot of force and power in their rolling. Don't know about the rest of their wing chun. So wasn't surprised when Joy said that.
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- #114
Using a lot of power as in forcing things and having a lot of power as in potential to impart force are different things.
Wing Chun Auckland
Green Belt
The more you work with force the more efficient and better you get at using it.
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- #116
Which end of the spectrum were the VK guys you met?
Being well practised in the wrong way can make a person good at imparting force in an inefficient or non-optimal way. The important thing is to practice in the right way and to get good at imparting useful force at the right time and for the right reason.
Wing Chun Auckland
Green Belt
Can't really say. Kind of force things a little. Sort of do things like try yank you bong down at the top of the roll. Solid structure in rolling etc. Dont know what their approach is in fighting or application scenarios.
I hear "hard" and "karatefied" from former longterm members of that lineage.
Wait, are you and WC Aukland agreeing? In that case there must be something to what you are saying. In my own lineage, certain individuals with modestly above average skill but significantly above average power have gone the same route. I call it going to the Hard Side. It seems that skill plus superior power creates a fast path for fighting ...until you meet someone with superior skill. Is this what happened with Victor Kan?
Here's an example. This guy apparently came out of LT's WT system and imitates Leung Ting's appearance in the mid 80's from the yellow-striped black uniform to the lock of hair that falls across his eyes. But LT was always very soft and elastic in his movements. This guy, on the other hand, has totally gone over to the "Hard Side":
Personally, I'm not a fan.
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Danny T
Senior Master
This is a different wc than I've experienced. Totally Hard with a lot of wide open telegraphed movements.
Not a fan if this is representative of everything he does.
