Defang or Decapitate?

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
7,364
Reaction score
3,571
Location
Phoenix, AZ
I posted this same question on FMATalk, but thought it would be interesting to get the response of folks over here too. Over on that forum someone posted a pretty cool videoclip titled "Defang" of a couple of Filipino soldiers going at each other with bare rattan and no protection. Pretty soon one guy got his hand cracked so hard he couldn't continue.

Anyway, when sparring or considering self-defense scenarios, do you favor going for the hand, the head, or both? Which do you feel is easer to hit? I know my instructor can nail either on me. Sometimes getting both in one shot! But then he is much better than I am. So in short, if your life depended on the outcome, do you try to defang or decapitate???
 

Thesemindz

Senior Master
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 26, 2003
Messages
2,170
Reaction score
103
Location
Springfield, Missouri
I posted this same question on FMATalk, but thought it would be interesting to get the response of folks over here too. Over on that forum someone posted a pretty cool videoclip titled "Defang" of a couple of Filipino soldiers going at each other with bare rattan and no protection. Pretty soon one guy got his hand cracked so hard he couldn't continue.

Anyway, when sparring or considering self-defense scenarios, do you favor going for the hand, the head, or both? Which do you feel is easer to hit? I know my instructor can nail either on me. Sometimes getting both in one shot! But then he is much better than I am. So in short, if your life depended on the outcome, do you try to defang or decapitate???

Personally, I try to hurt whatever I can get to.

I'd love to knock the guy out with one strike and walk away victorious, but sometimes you have to break down the wall to get to the castle. If I'm fighting a guy with really long limbs and I'm having trouble getting to his body I may start striking out against his arms, or legs, in order to slow him down or draw his defenses in closer to his body. The more ground he surrenders outside his guard, the closer I can get to crushing his skull or attacking his torso.

I don't plan to do anything more specific than win. I try to take advantage of whatever opportunities towards achieving that goal which present themselves.


-Rob
 

K831

Black Belt
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
595
Reaction score
28
Decapitate whenever I can, defang when I have too.

I think it is about available targets and distance. Defanging isn't guaranteed to stop an attacker, so I wouldn't "choose" it over a debilitating move.

My understanding of defanging is that it is largely range related. I don't see it as any different than a leg kick in a kick boxing match; Maybe I am out of range and can't close, but the leg strike is there...so I take it, but I wouldn't "trade" it for a fight ending shot.

Maybe he has better hands and I need to slow him down before I close the distance... enter the leg kick.

I think that is the same reasoning behind defanging; perhaps I am tentative to engage as closing the distance with a better knife fighter may get me over-committed and in trouble.. so control distance and defang i.e. take whatever cut I can to slow the better, more aggressive fighter down. Lower percantage move, but lower chance of over committing too.
 
OP
G

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
7,364
Reaction score
3,571
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Decapitate whenever I can, defang when I have too...

Suddenly I'm sorry I asked this question... since Jeff's started us sparring again. When will you be able to start back with us Jason?

Anyway, getting back on topic, what I'd like to be able to do is make my blocks work as an offense so I can block, take out the hand, and maybe even get through to the body with one move. You know, when your opponent leads too much with his hand in front of his body and you get a "two-fer"...hand and head in one well placed shot? Ok, I admit I don't pull it off that often, but Jeff and Maestro Martin do it to me all the time!
 

ap Oweyn

Brown Belt
Joined
Jun 30, 2005
Messages
401
Reaction score
36
Location
Loudoun County, Virginia
I think it's the nature of blocking, particularly in FMA, to reason that--while you're there--you might as well break something. In other words, you usually have to get past some form of defense before you can decapitate (or simply hit a primary target). And if you've got to contend with that obstruction one way or the other, you might as well damage it.

Depending on the level of threat, damaging the hand may be enough to deescalate and go home. If it's not, it still makes getting to something import that much easier.


Stuart
 

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
430
Location
Cromwell,CT
I posted this same question on FMATalk, but thought it would be interesting to get the response of folks over here too. Over on that forum someone posted a pretty cool videoclip titled "Defang" of a couple of Filipino soldiers going at each other with bare rattan and no protection. Pretty soon one guy got his hand cracked so hard he couldn't continue.

Anyway, when sparring or considering self-defense scenarios, do you favor going for the hand, the head, or both? Which do you feel is easer to hit? I know my instructor can nail either on me. Sometimes getting both in one shot! But then he is much better than I am. So in short, if your life depended on the outcome, do you try to defang or decapitate???

I'd try to target the hand first. Of course following up with an abanico strike to the head is always an option too. :D Of course, if you wanted to be more direct, the other hand could be used to block the incoming stick hand, while you go right for the head.
 

MichaelJB

White Belt
Joined
Feb 11, 2010
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
...what I'd like to be able to do is make my blocks work as an offense so I can block, take out the hand, and maybe even get through to the body with one move...

I suggest that you think less about "block" and more about "strike" when you do this to achieve your desired result. Well, that and work on timing. Anyway, I go through great pains to not use the word "block" with my students in favor of "defend/defense". For years I would "block" and ended up only having a block when I blocked. Now, thinking "strike/hit", even if my strike misses a maiming or lethal target and makes contact with the weapon, it's one hell of a "block". I've actually CUT rattan sticks with a rattan stick while "blocking" - imagine if that were an opponent's body part...
 

billc

Grandmaster
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2007
Messages
9,183
Reaction score
85
Location
somewhere near Lake Michigan
You will know which one you did after you are clear of the self-defense situation. Before that, I don't think you can tell how the situation is going to resolve itself.
 
OP
G

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
7,364
Reaction score
3,571
Location
Phoenix, AZ
...think less about "block" and more about "strike" when you do this to achieve your desired result... For years I would "block" and ended up only having a block when I blocked. Now, thinking "strike/hit", even if my strike misses a maiming or lethal target and makes contact with the weapon, it's one hell of a "block".

I think this really answers the question. If your defense is contained in your strike... you take the offense, and your defense "just happens". And as you point out, it is stronger and more efficient as a result.

By the same token, if you effectively target your opponent's "center", you will hit the hand/arm... or if the range is shorter, the head/body. So whether you hit the hand or the core takes care of itself. Trouble is, that doing that "effectively" involves all that other stuff like timing (as you mentioned), speed, having an angle (range and position) and so forth. In other words... "it ain't that easy!".

I've actually CUT rattan sticks with a rattan stick while "blocking" - imagine if that were an opponent's body part...

OK, I'm imagining that. Scary, dude!
 

MichaelJB

White Belt
Joined
Feb 11, 2010
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
In other words... "it ain't that easy!".

lol. It gets easier over time. That's why we practice!

I'll show you the pic of the "cut" stick next time I see you. I did it during a seminar with a no videos allowed policy so only a pic of the stick. Argh!
 

5masterserrada

White Belt
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
Location
Stockton, Ca.
If in real life one thinks about a particular body part he is in danger of loosing. If he thinks about not geeting hurt by targeting a particular body part, he has already lost. If one is so well versed in his movements that he automatically hits the right body part at the right time, he is destined to win. FMA people in particular sometimes believe that if they hit first and meaningfully they have won. Manong Cabales won and then decided to hit, or not hit...after all he has already won. On several ocassions he simply rested the weapon on his opponents neck. This concept of winning first before striking is truly the heart of great martial ability! So winning before the strike pre-empts the whole thought pattern of what to hit first. I have seen it done (winning before hitting) and it is humbling and a thing of beauty to watch. Ron Saturno
 

sgtmac_46

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 19, 2004
Messages
4,753
Reaction score
189
I posted this same question on FMATalk, but thought it would be interesting to get the response of folks over here too. Over on that forum someone posted a pretty cool videoclip titled "Defang" of a couple of Filipino soldiers going at each other with bare rattan and no protection. Pretty soon one guy got his hand cracked so hard he couldn't continue.

Anyway, when sparring or considering self-defense scenarios, do you favor going for the hand, the head, or both? Which do you feel is easer to hit? I know my instructor can nail either on me. Sometimes getting both in one shot! But then he is much better than I am. So in short, if your life depended on the outcome, do you try to defang or decapitate???

I guess it would depend on how close you were when you got the shot.

Personally, I favor the hand, simply because being able to reach HIS head, puts a great deal of my body in his range long before I reach his head, so it requires some type of attacking block to reach his head.

That having been said, there are times that the head is open where it's preferable to go for the head.........so the only answer is really 'Depends on the situation'.

Also, is this the stick that mimics the blade or just a stick? A stick that mimics the blade makes it trickier, as one can reach the head, cause lethal injury, and still simultaneously sustain lethal injury to yourself.
 
OP
G

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
7,364
Reaction score
3,571
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Thread Necro Alert... I started this thread almost 10 years ago. Also, at that time there were some really awesome contributors here. Now, most have moved on. Too bad. So what more can I add now?

Well, how about this recently posted YouTube clip on the subject of "disarms" by a guy who was my first and most influential FMA instructor (way back in the 80s). He always kept a pretty low profile, but recently he's put out a new batch of short videos on YouTube. Not about technique so much as concepts. No surprise there! Anyway check this out:

 

dvcochran

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Messages
7,047
Reaction score
2,297
Location
Southeast U.S.
I have a belt in Kali under Tuhon Bill McGrath. The best and most basic lesson we learned was "attack what is closest first".
They present a hand, cut at the finger web, they present again, cut the wrist. They present again cut at the next joint and so on. He worked it somewhat backwards to conventional thinking; we learned with the blade first, then sticks, then open hands. More than a few cuts along the way.
Good times.
 
OP
G

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
7,364
Reaction score
3,571
Location
Phoenix, AZ
I have a belt in Kali under Tuhon Bill McGrath. The best and most basic lesson we learned was "attack what is closest first".

I wouldn't consider that "a disarm", although if you score a good shot, it damn well may be! Attacking the closest target (usually the hand or wrist) is just good, common sense. Rene Latosa emphasized that as well, along with "climbing the tree" as you work your way in.

Interestingly, around the time I started this thread I was regularly training with Jeff LaTorre out in Mesa, AZ. Jeff practices DTE Escrima/MMA with Martin Torres down in Chandler, but many years back got his start back in Rochester (?) New York with Tuhon Bill McGrath. Jeff's younger brother Jack is a Pekiti instructor. So there was a fair amount of Pekiti in what Jeff taught us and I heard a lot of good stuff about Tuhon McGrath. :)
 

Danny T

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
4,258
Reaction score
2,293
Location
New Iberia, Louisiana USA
Within Pekiti-Tirsia there are different attacking subsets that instruct slightly different strategies and tactics. Within the 5-Attacks and 12-Attacks subsets the Primary target is the hand, secondary the head, tertiary the knees. In the 7-Attacks subset the primary is the head, secondary is the knees and utilizing the attack to the legs for trips, off-balancing or takedowns. Primary target hand, secondary target the elbow, tertiary the head, and quaternary the knees. Within the Contradas the primary is the hand while in the Recontras the primary is the head. Alphabito is about destroying the live hand and Numerato is about destroying the knees or legs.

As to disarms...disarms happen not because of specifically going for a disarm but for having placed the opponent's weapon hand in a position that when attacking the disarm happens. We teach; Never attempt a disarm if the opponent's head is working properly or the hand is working properly. In other words damage the head and/or the hand before attempting a disarm.
 

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
23,363
Reaction score
9,103
Location
Pueblo West, CO
As to disarms...disarms happen not because of specifically going for a disarm but for having placed the opponent's weapon hand in a position that when attacking the disarm happens. We teach; Never attempt a disarm if the opponent's head is working properly or the hand is working properly. In other words damage the head and/or the hand before attempting a disarm.

I have not been following this thread, just spot reading, so take this for what it's worth.
I think what you're saying here is probably true for specific weapons, but certainly not all. With some weapons (for example, the rapier) there are absolutely techniques that are intended specifically to disarm. Now, you could describe them as making sure "the hand is working properly" in that they rely on leverage and positioning to work. But they don't actually do any damage whatsoever, and you certainly are specifically going for a disarm. And at least a couple of them could, I believe, be used effectively with escrima sticks.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
12,212
Reaction score
6,308
Location
New York
I have not been following this thread, just spot reading, so take this for what it's worth.
I think what you're saying here is probably true for specific weapons, but certainly not all. With some weapons (for example, the rapier) there are absolutely techniques that are intended specifically to disarm. Now, you could describe them as making sure "the hand is working properly" in that they rely on leverage and positioning to work. But they don't actually do any damage whatsoever, and you certainly are specifically going for a disarm. And at least a couple of them could, I believe, be used effectively with escrima sticks.
I think he was referring specifically to the philosophy of his style of ptk, not necessarily whether or not a disarm can be done with the intent of a disarm/without damaging the other person's hand.
 

Latest Discussions

Top