Contradictions In The Martial Arts

OP
P

PhotonGuy

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
4,302
Reaction score
597
it also is highly dependent on the styles trained and style training
True, I usually wouldn't expect somebody who has backgrounds in only striking based styles to have much of an advantage if they were to try to learn a grappling style, or vice versa.
Yes, yes I am. And quite often too
Well sometimes people don't give me the information I ask for, which could help me get their point(s).
 

Xue Sheng

All weight is underside
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
34,513
Reaction score
9,772
Location
North American Tectonic Plate
True, I usually wouldn't expect somebody who has backgrounds in only striking based styles to have much of an advantage if they were to try to learn a grappling style, or vice versa.
karate has striking and a lot of karate folks have problems going to some Chinese styles
Well sometimes people don't give me the information I ask for, which could help me get their point(s).
I do not agree with that. I have and others have given you very clear and concise info, and you still seem to miss the point, and or ask the same question again
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
30,085
Reaction score
10,643
Location
Hendersonville, NC
True, I usually wouldn't expect somebody who has backgrounds in only striking based styles to have much of an advantage if they were to try to learn a grappling style, or vice versa.
I dont think its as straightforward as that. I expect someone from Gujo-ryu Karate would have an easier time learning what I taught than someone from Shotokan Karate. I also suspect someone from from some Japanese Jujutsu styles would have a much easier time than many from the Aikikai. Sometime having something that seems similar, but uses a different approach, is harder.
 

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
14,166
Reaction score
6,091
karate has striking and a lot of karate folks have problems going to some Chinese styles
I agree. The movements and the principles that go with it are completely different. Japanese martial arts are like saying "give it to me straight " Chinese martial is like saying "read in-between the lines"

Sometimes there is difficulty with moving from one Chinese system to another and I'm only referring to just learning the forms. Application adds to the difficulty. I don't expect to learn Bagua with ease simply because I took Jow Ga.
 

Tony Dismukes

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
7,676
Reaction score
7,806
Location
Lexington, KY
That people with previous experience in other arts can have an easier time grasping concepts, even in new arts that they're just starting out in.

Not necessarily..... seen it hinder some folks and help some folks...

I will say I much prefer students that don't have previous experience. The whole we did it this way and that way. Certain habits that carry over etc. Sometimes habitual body movement that contravenes. But I do get that someone with previous experience may get certain nuances better
I'll speak a bit from my experience as both a student and instructor ...

As I've previously mentioned, I've trained in a number of arts over the years. The first art that I spent significant time in was Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. It did cause a little bit of interference at the beginning of my training in the next couple of arts I tried. Not because of the experience in itself, but because I had been indoctrinated with the idea that the Taijutsu body mechanics were inherently superior and so I was trying to practice the new techniques using those old body mechanics. Once I learned to empty my cup when approaching a new art, then all my previous experiences became a consistent benefit. (You can ask @JowGaWolf how I do now when introduced to a new system with different body mechanics from what I'm used to.)

Speaking as an instructor, I have to say that my students who come in with previous martial arts experience generally do better than those who don't (or at least no worse). But it's really not limited to martial arts experience. Students who come in with some sort of athletic background or experience in using and controlling their bodies have a significant advantage over those without that experience. Football players, gymnasts, strength athletes, dancers ... what matters is they have the fundamental attributes - kinesthetic awareness, balance, coordination, etc that their technical development will be built on. It's possible that the non-martial athletes do a bit better on average than the martial artists (except those who come from a closely related art like Judo or wrestling) because none of them come in with the idea that their soccer or acrobatics background is inherently superior to BJJ and they should continue using those body mechanics.

One of my favorite students right now has a background as a football player, gymnast, TKD practitioner and has a doctorate in physical therapy. I enjoy working with him because he understands body mechanics and I can show him something once or twice and he can put it to use right away. Students without that sort of background often take much longer to comprehend what they are being shown and how to replicate it.
 

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
7,397
Reaction score
3,632
Location
Phoenix, AZ
The first art that I spent significant time in was Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. It did cause a little bit of interference at the beginning of my training in the next couple of arts I tried. Not because of the experience in itself, but because I had been indoctrinated with the idea that the Taijutsu body mechanics were inherently superior and so I was trying to practice the new techniques using those old body mechanics....
I've experienced this too. My original training in Wing Chun involved a similar sort of indoctrination of superiority. Rather than helping with learning other arts, it held me back.

Too bad, because many of the mechanics I learned did relate to other arts in a sort of conceptual way ...but that's an awareness that comes later, after you've "emptied your cup" and learned the basics of the new discipline.

Another thing, once I realized this, I became a bit suspect in my original circle since the old crew could kinda tell that I didn't drink the kool-aid. Personally, I feel that there comes a point where learning contrasting arts can be really beneficial intellectually as well as physically.
 
OP
P

PhotonGuy

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
4,302
Reaction score
597
karate has striking and a lot of karate folks have problems going to some Chinese styles
That would also depend on exactly what Chinese style they're going into. To just mention Chinese styles in general would be very broad as there are many different types of Chinese styles which have all sorts of different material. There are some Chinese styles that are grappling based for instance, even if you might think of most Chinese styles as being striking based.

Speaking from my own experience, I've tried a bunch of Chinese styles and not had any trouble with them. My main background in the martial arts is in karate and yet with some of the Chinese styles I've tried, I've done really good in them. I can't speak for everybody of course so Im just speaking from my own experience.
I do not agree with that. I have and others have given you very clear and concise info, and you still seem to miss the point, and or ask the same question again
Im not saying you haven't, Im saying there's other specific people on this forum who have not given me certain information and continually dodge my inquiries for such information. Im not going to mention any names and I don't recall you as such a person on this forum but there are other people on this forum that are as I described. Usually when Im asking for information Im asking for it from a specific person.
 
OP
P

PhotonGuy

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
4,302
Reaction score
597
I dont think its as straightforward as that. I expect someone from Gujo-ryu Karate would have an easier time learning what I taught than someone from Shotokan Karate. I also suspect someone from from some Japanese Jujutsu styles would have a much easier time than many from the Aikikai. Sometime having something that seems similar, but uses a different approach, is harder.
You teach Aikido I believe. From what little I know about Aikido it is a grappling based style that focuses on redirecting your opponent's energy. I suppose somebody with a background in Goju Ryu (such as me) could have some advantages as you do find some of that in Goju Ryu although it is not the main focus of the art, but somebody with a background in a grappling based style such as Judo or Jiu Jitsu would probably have an even bigger advantage.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
30,085
Reaction score
10,643
Location
Hendersonville, NC
You teach Aikido I believe. From what little I know about Aikido it is a grappling based style that focuses on redirecting your opponent's energy. I suppose somebody with a background in Goju Ryu (such as me) could have some advantages as you do find some of that in Goju Ryu although it is not the main focus of the art, but somebody with a background in a grappling based style such as Judo or Jiu Jitsu would probably have an even bigger advantage.
I'm speaking specifically to Nihon Goshin Aikido ("aikido" is confusing in a way - it's both a category of styles, and a specific style in that category, like if there was a style of Karate just named "Karate"). Folks from the Aikikai (the group training the style "Aikido") seem to approach aiki mechanics - and grappling, overall - quite differently from us, and some folks who came to train with us really struggled with that difference (though at least one very much did not - he understood those differences and the basic mechanics we shared).

My point about the impact of Goju vs Shotokan is about their approach. As I understand it (and I'm no expert), Goju is more circular, while Shotokan is more straight-line. Folks I've trained with or taught who came in with that straight-line approach had a harder time early in their training, because we use our bodies differently (different relaxation, different use of tension). That said, one of my best training partners started NGA shortly after he started Shotokan. He was really good at using that straight-line approach within what we do, right from the beginning, because he was still early in his Shotokan learning.
 

Xue Sheng

All weight is underside
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
34,513
Reaction score
9,772
Location
North American Tectonic Plate
That would also depend on exactly what Chinese style they're going into. To just mention Chinese styles in general would be very broad as there are many different types of Chinese styles which have all sorts of different material. There are some Chinese styles that are grappling based for instance, even if you might think of most Chinese styles as being striking based.

Speaking from my own experience, I've tried a bunch of Chinese styles and not had any trouble with them. My main background in the martial arts is in karate and yet with some of the Chinese styles I've tried, I've done really good in them. I can't speak for everybody of course so Im just speaking from my own experience.

not all have issues, Ive said that already. but based on my experience. I have seen karate and tkd folks have problems with shaolin long fist baguazhang, xingyiqua, taijiqua (Yang & Chen). I have trouble with Wing Chun application due to my xingyiquan and Taijiquan background.

but also as I previously said, not all have issue. two of the best shaolin long fist guys I knew, one had an extensive tkd background and the other was an American kenpo guy.

the tkd guy also caught o to bagua pretty well, however the American kenpo guy had a hard time.

I have trained with and trained tkd, karate, judo and aikido folks in taijiquan. The tkd and karate folks always have issue, they tend to be way to tense and stiff and all but one quit. The aikido folks t do well and the judo guy did fine too
 

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
14,166
Reaction score
6,091
Once I learned to empty my cup when approaching a new art, then all my previous experiences became a consistent benefit. (You can ask @JowGaWolf how I do now when introduced to a new system with different body mechanics from what I'm used to.)
I agree with this, and I have a lot to say, but my original post turned into a book. Lots of good stuff, but too long for this response.

You do much better than others with "emptying your cup" Here's what I noticed about your previous experience at the time when I didn't take it into consideration in teaching the long fist. On the teaching end I just taught you the same as I would as beginner so that I wouldn't make assumptions about things that I thought you would catch on quickly about.

1. You have a good feel for "Sparring to learn" which i an exercise that requires "emptying your cup"

2. You trusted the technique. There are Jow Ga practitioners who trained Jow Ga for 30+ years who still can't do this. I think your previous experience made this easier for you. Once you understand what it takes to learn how to use a technique in one system then you can just plug that learning path into Jow Ga.. You also trusted the technique by doing it as I showed you vs. trying to change it. You jumped right in and then saw how I reacted, which was a real reaction and not staged. It's the same one that most people give.. I didn't get the feeling that you were trying to make the technique work similar to something you already knew of.

3. You had realistic expectations of yourself. "Its me not the technique." mindset is very important. I never got the feeling you were trying to "Test" the technique. It was more like you were trying to learn and understand the technique. You took the technique for a "Test drive" but I didn't get the feel that you were trying to see that it works.

4. You went back and used it in sparring against someone else again "Test driving" a technique.

5. You paid attention to when it worked and when your opponent was getting around it. Again, great stuff, but that type of mindset comes from experience in learning new things.

I think you naturally have good listening skills and a willingness to try to understand things as they are taught vs trying to use another system prinicple to make it work. You could have easily tried to use Jow Ga with the MMA engine for the long fist. But you didn't.
This is the problem that Rokas has with his Aikido. He's trying to drive Aikido techniques with a BJJ engine and it's not going to produce a lot of desired results. When you used Jow Ga you tried to drive it with a Jow Ga engine.

Even though some long fist techniques try to use a boxing engine. I think they would get better results with long fist engine. They would the same number of KOs, but they would also get additional use out of it to drive combos. The one thing I've never seen in MMA is for an MMA fighter to use that MMA long fist for something other than a "One Shot Strike" But with the Jow Ga engine you were able to throw multiple long fist strikes. Similar strikes, different engines.

I see previous experience in 2 categories
Previous physical experience = How many ways does your brain know how to move your body? The more martial arts that you take that have different movements, the better your brain will be at making your body learn new movements.

Previous mental experience = the more martial arts you take, the more time you spend learning. The exposure you have to learning different things, the better you become at learning and emptying your cup.

I never got the feeling that things were just bouncing off of you. I've taught enough people to know when I'm just teaching myself. The amount that you absorbed was also impressive since I said a lot but only touched the surface of how to actually do the technique

I think when it comes to experience. The more complex the movement is from past experience, the more beneficial it will be when learning a different martial art.

lol it still turned out to be a book, so I'll stop
 

Wing Woo Gar

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 30, 2021
Messages
3,941
Reaction score
2,219
Location
Northern California
I agree with this, and I have a lot to say, but my original post turned into a book. Lots of good stuff, but too long for this response.

You do much better than others with "emptying your cup" Here's what I noticed about your previous experience at the time when I didn't take it into consideration in teaching the long fist. On the teaching end I just taught you the same as I would as beginner so that I wouldn't make assumptions about things that I thought you would catch on quickly about.

1. You have a good feel for "Sparring to learn" which i an exercise that requires "emptying your cup"

2. You trusted the technique. There are Jow Ga practitioners who trained Jow Ga for 30+ years who still can't do this. I think your previous experience made this easier for you. Once you understand what it takes to learn how to use a technique in one system then you can just plug that learning path into Jow Ga.. You also trusted the technique by doing it as I showed you vs. trying to change it. You jumped right in and then saw how I reacted, which was a real reaction and not staged. It's the same one that most people give.. I didn't get the feeling that you were trying to make the technique work similar to something you already knew of.

3. You had realistic expectations of yourself. "Its me not the technique." mindset is very important. I never got the feeling you were trying to "Test" the technique. It was more like you were trying to learn and understand the technique. You took the technique for a "Test drive" but I didn't get the feel that you were trying to see that it works.

4. You went back and used it in sparring against someone else again "Test driving" a technique.

5. You paid attention to when it worked and when your opponent was getting around it. Again, great stuff, but that type of mindset comes from experience in learning new things.

I think you naturally have good listening skills and a willingness to try to understand things as they are taught vs trying to use another system prinicple to make it work. You could have easily tried to use Jow Ga with the MMA engine for the long fist. But you didn't.
This is the problem that Rokas has with his Aikido. He's trying to drive Aikido techniques with a BJJ engine and it's not going to produce a lot of desired results. When you used Jow Ga you tried to drive it with a Jow Ga engine.

Even though some long fist techniques try to use a boxing engine. I think they would get better results with long fist engine. They would the same number of KOs, but they would also get additional use out of it to drive combos. The one thing I've never seen in MMA is for an MMA fighter to use that MMA long fist for something other than a "One Shot Strike" But with the Jow Ga engine you were able to throw multiple long fist strikes. Similar strikes, different engines.

I see previous experience in 2 categories
Previous physical experience = How many ways does your brain know how to move your body? The more martial arts that you take that have different movements, the better your brain will be at making your body learn new movements.

Previous mental experience = the more martial arts you take, the more time you spend learning. The exposure you have to learning different things, the better you become at learning and emptying your cup.

I never got the feeling that things were just bouncing off of you. I've taught enough people to know when I'm just teaching myself. The amount that you absorbed was also impressive since I said a lot but only touched the surface of how to actually do the technique

I think when it comes to experience. The more complex the movement is from past experience, the more beneficial it will be when learning a different martial art.

lol it still turned out to be a book, so I'll stop
Good book!
 

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
14,166
Reaction score
6,091
Good book!
I could probably crank out 3 or 4 chapters on that short period of time, just comparing. We didn't do any real sparring but what we did was enough to get a good picture.

Here's an example,
I had tunnel vision in terms of preventing the single leg take down that I forgot to make adjustments on preventing someone from attacking from the top. Now I have to go back to the techniques to see what the Jow Ga answer is for that. I think I know the answer for it, but I would have to try to see if it fits.
 

Wing Woo Gar

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 30, 2021
Messages
3,941
Reaction score
2,219
Location
Northern California
I could probably crank out 3 or 4 chapters on that short period of time, just comparing. We didn't do any real sparring but what we did was enough to get a good picture.

Here's an example,
I had tunnel vision in terms of preventing the single leg take down that I forgot to make adjustments on preventing someone from attacking from the top. Now I have to go back to the techniques to see what the Jow Ga answer is for that. I think I know the answer for it, but I would have to try to see if it fits.
I hope to hear what you find. What was your Jow ga defense for the SLT itself?
 

Wing Woo Gar

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 30, 2021
Messages
3,941
Reaction score
2,219
Location
Northern California
After over 25 years in Wing Woo Gar, there are only a couple of small, complicating factors regarding the process of learning Shaolin White Crane as a new martial art for myself. One is stance, another is defensive returning hand forms. Its really been a good exercise to move in a way Im not used to and would not have had the patience to pursue at a younger age. The concepts, techniques, tactics, and teaching methodology are completely different from what I have learned previously. Instead of trying to apply what I know to white crane, Im coming to this learning opportunity from the perspective of how to add white crane to my vocabulary of concepts. Its far too early for me to have any observations beyond the fact that its fun to be a beginner.
 

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
14,166
Reaction score
6,091
I hope to hear what you find. What was your Jow ga defense for the SLT itself?
In Jow Ga, the defense is to take a lower stance to force your opponent to take a lower shoot on your leg than they should. I don't want to put words in @Tony Dismukes mouth, so I'll just say that one of my training partners told me that if it was too low, they wouldn't take it. But if they wanted to take it then they you would take advantage of it being a bad shoot. The under hook allows me to twist my opponent's spine. The goal is to prevent this from happening by making the space between my lead leg and my arm pit smaller.
1708392385910.png


Having the lead arm lower complicates things. Insted of trying to push on the head to prevent the shoot. Allow the shoot come in so that iit slipce nicely under my opponents right armpit. If get caught with my lead hand outside then I'll need to lower my rear arm to get the under hook step back with my left leg and turn.

I don't want to be caught in this posistion because I can't stop my opponent's foward movement nor the lifting moving. Twisting the spine stops these motions because they will wither fight the twisting or the try to drive foward. Body mechanics will not let them do both. If they ignore the twisting then I can use it to stop or weaking my opponents ability frive forward or lift. If he tries to stop the twisting then it will be at the cost of stopping the foward drive and lifting. The the under hooks also makes it more difficult to lock the hands. It can interupt my opponent's drive just enough to snap that leg free. before the grip locks. The key is Turn. Wthout the turn then things get difficult.
1708392857147.png



One arm held high, and the other arm held low makes it easy to get the underook as your opponet's incoming force will gurantee it. The low arm stays in that position so that it can get the underhook upon collision. The undergood is good for changing force direction while in motion. The harder your oppnent comes in the easier the twisting is.

If my opponent does this, then I'm ooing to land a hammer fist, face slap, or an upper cut depending of the position of my leg. Here you see the lead hand is not forward. My lead hand stays forward so it can run interference long enough for my leg to escape. I'm not look for KO power. I'm looking to cause direction change, delay, or closed eyes. I'm not trying to punch my way out. If I can make any of those then my chances for escape are good.
1708393942145.png


There are some other techniques in Jow Ga but they are more difficult to pull off and I don't know the Plan B if Plan A fails.
 
Top