The need to over-complicate

Bill Mattocks

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Feb 8, 2009
Messages
15,675
Reaction score
4,547
Location
Michigan
Gear:

One needs an appropriate uniform for the training in which they want to engage. A gi, dobok, or whatever it is that the particular training facility requires. Sparring/protective gear may or may not be required, and the same is true of weapons. However, past this, it often seems to me that people get carried away, especially as newcomers. Fancy uniforms, embroidered with initials, belts, expensive gear and weapons, and so on.

Books / Videos:

Unless required by the training facility or recommended by an instructor, there's usually not a lot of need to fill up a bookshelf with such things, especially not at first.

Seminars:

Seminars are nice and can be useful. But it's not uncommon to find instruction that contradicts or as at least appreciably different than one's own training. Again, speaking mostly for beginners, this can be confusing and frustrating.

Cross-Training:

As a beginner, just don't do it. There's no need. Get a good grounding in one art before trying to take on another as a raw beginner. Even among those who have trained for a long time, there often seems to be a perceived need to become a more 'well-rounded' martial artist by studying other styles of MA. I don't think so. In most circumstances, if what you are learning is a good art with good instructors, you are already 'well-rounded'. You need nothing else. Maybe for the expert, possibly, under certain circumstances. But definitely not for everyone.

Exercise books, equipment, and videos:

Seriously. Get a jump rope and use it. A lot. Do pushups and crunches. Stretch. That's it. You don't need fitness experts or flexibility experts or expensive machines or weird books with anatomical drawings of muscle groups. The secret to the basics? Do them. Do them a lot. That's all.

You know what martial arts students do NOT take to the end of the earth? Practicing their basics, kata/forms, and techniques. No one ever seems to obsess over the one thing they can do at home for free for as long as they want; practice.

It's just not that complicated. Join a martial arts school. Get the required/recommended gear and/or weapons. Get a jump rope and practice basic exercises at home whenever possible. Pay attention in class and practice at home. Don't obsess over cross-training or seminars, don't spend all your available free time reading books and watching videos; go practice in your basement or backyard or a local park.

:boing1:
 

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
21,991
Reaction score
7,548
Location
Covington, WA
YouTube is a blessing and a curse for training. On the one hand, there are a ton of techniques shown. On the other... there are a TON of techniques shown.

New guys get so confused trying to learn all the greatest stuff on YouTube. Just relax. Listen to your coach. Learn the basics and stick with them. Nothing is funnier to me than to see a white belt trying to work a berimbolo or upside down guard move he learned on YouTube, but can't do a basic armbar from guard correctly.
 

Argus

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Messages
774
Reaction score
300
Location
Japan
This is what attracted me to Traditional Chinese Martial Arts. No need for even rank, uniforms, gloves, or gear. Just show up and train!
 

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
23,440
Reaction score
9,220
Location
Pueblo West, CO
This is hardly something that's limited to martial arts.
I do a fair bit of guest lecturing at the local colleges. I was asked to give a talk on pulmonary diseases at one of the nursing programs. Off I go, talking about things like cystic fibrosis, asthma, emphysema, etc. I started talking about changes in blood gasses and noticed the dreaded "deer in the headlights" look on the faces of many of the students, so I asked if they had studied blood gas interpretation yet.
I was informed that they had just spend two days on just that subject.
Bluntly, that was the problem. It doesn't take two days to understand the basics of arterial blood gasses. It takes 5 minutes.

The desire to make what you do seem complicated, sophisticated, and incomprehensible to the layman seems to be near-universal.

How else do we explain the 3/4" thick book covering nothing but ABG's these poor students had been subjected to?
 

Xue Sheng

All weight is underside
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
34,380
Reaction score
9,558
Location
North American Tectonic Plate
Chinese martial arts, show up in street clothes, listen to your sifu and beat the hell out of each other :D ....no need to complicate anything...found the same in JKD too....
 

Carol

Crazy like a...
MT Mentor
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jan 16, 2006
Messages
20,311
Reaction score
541
Location
NH
I actually think videos can be a huge asset to a beginner. There were a few times within my first year of training that I had to spend some time traveling and away from class. I would get a bit confused as to how (say) a form would go, and didn't find anything of value online. Sure, when I searched YouTube at the time for "form y" I saw several people doing "form y". They didn't all look the same, and some I couldn't follow due to the practitioner's speed or embellishments.

The times I struggled through it, I ended up putting together something that was incorrect. And therefore, something I had to unlearn and re-learn the proper way. I would have LOVED a chance to pull up a video in my hotel room of my instructor (or someone they trusted) performing what I was trying to practice. It would have helped me tremendously. Not only would it have made my practice time more fruitful, but it also would have guided me in asking better questions. Perhaps instead of saying "I just don't get this" I could have said "The part in the middle where we transition to the right foot is giving me trouble".

Just my thoughts tho...
 
OP
Bill Mattocks

Bill Mattocks

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Feb 8, 2009
Messages
15,675
Reaction score
4,547
Location
Michigan
I actually think videos can be a huge asset to a beginner. There were a few times within my first year of training that I had to spend some time traveling and away from class. I would get a bit confused as to how (say) a form would go, and didn't find anything of value online. Sure, when I searched YouTube at the time for "form y" I saw several people doing "form y". They didn't all look the same, and some I couldn't follow due to the practitioner's speed or embellishments.

The times I struggled through it, I ended up putting together something that was incorrect. And therefore, something I had to unlearn and re-learn the proper way. I would have LOVED a chance to pull up a video in my hotel room of my instructor (or someone they trusted) performing what I was trying to practice. It would have helped me tremendously. Not only would it have made my practice time more fruitful, but it also would have guided me in asking better questions. Perhaps instead of saying "I just don't get this" I could have said "The part in the middle where we transition to the right foot is giving me trouble".

Just my thoughts tho...

I don't disagree, but I'm talking about the folks who have to have the newest and most stylish fighting togs, the bags, the logos, the embroidery on their uniforms. The training books, manuals, and DVDs. The exercises, overly complex things that require equipment, teachers, special training clothing, etc, etc, and so on and so forth.

Do I drink this energy drink or that protein shake? How about power bars before a work out? Should I do three sets of five crunches or five sets of three? Do I wear the same color gi as everyone else, or should I get a camouflage one? This gym bag has my dojo logo on it, but that one shows my rank in pulsing neon LEDs. Does this non-chafing t-shirt make me look fat? What about those new Ringmaster shoes; should I get them or spar in last year's model?

THAT is what I am talking about. People taking the most basic possible thing; exercise and martial arts training, and running off the G-danged end of the earth with it.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
23,419
Reaction score
8,143
I think this idea that martial arts is the only discipline you cannot cross train is still a bit rich.

People seem to learn multiple languages.

Can lean multiple dance disciplines.

Play multiple instruments.

Perform multiple sports.

But martial arts is so complicated in comparison you can't.
 

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
7,375
Reaction score
3,598
Location
Phoenix, AZ
....But martial arts is so complicated in comparison you can't.


It is. At least the way some people teach it. Or you can simplify things and look for common concepts. Sometimes that can help you gain a functional knowledge of several arts at the same time. I guess it just depends on the individual and the particular arts in question.

I have no trouble studying both Wing Chun and Escrima. And lately I'm getting a bit more grappling instruction which is insane considering that I'm 59 with bad joints ...but I absolutely love it!
 
OP
Bill Mattocks

Bill Mattocks

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Feb 8, 2009
Messages
15,675
Reaction score
4,547
Location
Michigan
I think this idea that martial arts is the only discipline you cannot cross train is still a bit rich.

People seem to learn multiple languages.

Can lean multiple dance disciplines.

Play multiple instruments.

Perform multiple sports.

But martial arts is so complicated in comparison you can't.

No, martial arts is basic. Of course a person can learn multiple styles. However, there's seldom any need for it. People get sucked into this idea that they need a bit from here, a bit from there, add some of this and a touch of that. Find an art that suits your body type, temperament, and basic abilities, and learn it. Done. Way down the road, when a new student can actually say they have a basic idea of what it's all about, THEN perhaps it might be time to add some spice from other styles, carefully selected and learned. That's nuance. Newbies ain't got no nuance, and they think they need lots of 'stuff' from all kinds of styles. They do not.

A newbie training in multiple styles is basically asking to fail hard in all of them at once.
 

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
23,440
Reaction score
9,220
Location
Pueblo West, CO
I think this idea that martial arts is the only discipline you cannot cross train is still a bit rich.

I don't recall ever seeing a single person say you cannot cross train. I have seen many people suggest that it's good to have a solid grounding in "A" before throwing "B" into the mix.
As a small example, consider power generation. There are different ways to generate power, and different arts use different methods. Some of these methods are complementary. Some are antithetical. Attempting to perform a strike in a Wing Chun school using power generation techniques learned in a Taekwondo school is not going to yield good results.

People seem to learn multiple languages.

True, but not generally all at the same time.

Can lean multiple dance disciplines.

True, but not generally all at the same time.

Play multiple instruments.

True, but not generally all at the same time.

Perform multiple sports.

True, but not generally all at the same time.

But martial arts is so complicated in comparison you can't.

There are lots of things that CAN be done. That doesn't mean it's the best approach.
 
Last edited:

tshadowchaser

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Founding Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 29, 2001
Messages
13,460
Reaction score
733
Location
Athol, Ma. USA
Seminars: a way one can say they studied with this or that instructor. A beginner may get nothing if the seminar is taught on an advance level. or the advanced level student may get nothing if it is taught on a beginner level . Oh the instructor increases their reputation and makes a bunch of money

Fancy Uniforms. More more charged for them and they look pretty

Embroidery: same as above plus it ma impress someone

books and videos: If by your instructor may help you learn a form or technique your working on. ...May be just another self promotion money making idea of the instructor

Key chains, pocket books, jackets stc.: Money makers for the school/ instructor. Great for advertisement and make the student or his parents feel like they are truly a student and part of the group exercise or stretching equipment: may help but is really unnecessary looks good and impresses one self and others

Hell if I had sold all of that stuff I might still be teaching in a commercial school and teaching a bunch of people who wanted to look good , not sweat, and think they where learning because they had all the bells and whistles instead of teaching the ones I do now that want to learn
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Sojobo

Green Belt
Joined
Sep 5, 2010
Messages
181
Reaction score
24
Seminars: a way one can say they studied with this or that instructor.

Ime, sadly it seems to be why most people do these days.

A beginner may get nothing if the seminar is taught on an advance level. or the advanced level student may get nothing if it is taught on a beginner level .

Again ime most seminars I have attended have been geared toward senior students.

That said, I have had several "penny-drop" moments at seminars. Perhaps the change of instructor or process makes you think slightly differently?

I'm a little more selective these days as to the seminars I go to, but in general I would suggest they are a good thing.
 

oftheherd1

Senior Master
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
4,685
Reaction score
817
No, martial arts is basic. Of course a person can learn multiple styles. However, there's seldom any need for it. People get sucked into this idea that they need a bit from here, a bit from there, add some of this and a touch of that. Find an art that suits your body type, temperament, and basic abilities, and learn it. Done. Way down the road, when a new student can actually say they have a basic idea of what it's all about, THEN perhaps it might be time to add some spice from other styles, carefully selected and learned. That's nuance. Newbies ain't got no nuance, and they think they need lots of 'stuff' from all kinds of styles. They do not.

A newbie training in multiple styles is basically asking to fail hard in all of them at once.

In my experience, many MA aren't taught as they were 30 to 50 years ago. Would your MA work on the street? It would have 30 to 50 years ago. If it doesn't now, perhaps you need to seek another school in your chosen art. In Korea, many martial arts do encourage a student to attain a black belt in another art. But that is normally at the 3rd Dan level. Training in multiple arts for your own knowledge and edification is one thing, seeking to learn enough to be effective as a fighter isn't the right road inmo.

So I think Bill is spot on. Learn one MA and learn it well. Then if you wish, learn another. But if the only reason you have to learn another MA is to be more rounded and a better fighter because of it, you learned (or didn't learn) from the wrong school/instructor.

I think perhaps Drop Bear, being MMA (per his profile), may think taking a few things from several different arts, rather than becoming very proficient in one, then fighting in an octagon with a specific rule set, is better than learning any art completely.

If I am wrong Drop Bear, don't hesitate to let me know. I don't mean that as a put down, just trying to understand why you or anyone else would not think one MA, properly learned past BB would not be enough for self defense.
 

Sojobo

Green Belt
Joined
Sep 5, 2010
Messages
181
Reaction score
24
In my experience, many MA aren't taught as they were 30 to 50 years ago. Would your MA work on the street? It would have 30 to 50 years ago. If it doesn't now, perhaps you need to seek another school in your chosen art. In Korea, many martial arts do encourage a student to attain a black belt in another art. But that is normally at the 3rd Dan level. Training in multiple arts for your own knowledge and edification is one thing, seeking to learn enough to be effective as a fighter isn't the right road inmo.

So I think Bill is spot on. Learn one MA and learn it well. Then if you wish, learn another. But if the only reason you have to learn another MA is to be more rounded and a better fighter because of it, you learned (or didn't learn) from the wrong school/instructor.

I think perhaps Drop Bear, being MMA (per his profile), may think taking a few things from several different arts, rather than becoming very proficient in one, then fighting in an octagon with a specific rule set, is better than learning any art completely.

If I am wrong Drop Bear, don't hesitate to let me know. I don't mean that as a put down, just trying to understand why you or anyone else would not think one MA, properly learned past BB would not be enough for self defense.

Assuming of course that your primary reason for studying martial arts is to be the best fighter / self defence exponent possible!

There are a plethora of more important reasons imo.
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
Staff member
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
13,001
Reaction score
10,531
Location
Maui
Seminars: a way one can say they studied with this or that instructor. A beginner may get nothing if the seminar is taught on an advance level. or the advanced level student may get nothing if it is taught on a beginner level . Oh the instructor increases their reputation and makes a bunch of money

I agree with Shadowchaser. I think seminars are terrific, especially if you think you're going to be in the arts for the long haul.

Seminars are a funny thing, though. I've taught a lot of them, many by myself, many with other more notable Martial Artists, and I've forgotten how many I've attended over the years. You go in planning to teach certain thing(s), whether it's principles, techniques, training methods etc. But you have to play it by ear dependent on the people attending. If there's a bootload of beginners, you either have to split them up and have several things going on at once, or you have to gear certain things down to a more basic level. Sometimes the attendees want something other than what you planned. So you just go with the flo.

And you want them to be fun. I've been fortunate to have trained with a lot of people. But training with them in a regular class, and training with, or assisting them, in a seminar are two different kettles of fish. The seminars are more fun, the folks teaching tend to make them that way. It's a more relaxed stetting. And that's every single time that I can remember.

I've attended seminars that were jumping off points to decades long instruction from that particular teacher. I didn't intend that to happen, it just does at times. As for folks taking seminars so they can say, "I trained with so and so" I don't think anyone much cares, certainly not the people teaching, it seems to be human nature, especially with young people. I think most teachers take it either as a compliment or as a "who?"

One time, overseas, a group of us were having dinner when the host (the guy paying us) came running in. Apparently there had been a schedule screw up and a whole gymnasium full of people were waiting for us to teach a seminar. We didn't even know about it (we had been doing them all week) So we dropped everything, drove a half hour and were greeted by two hundred Karate students packed in a college basketball court. It was me, Billy Blanks, Tokey Hill, Arlene Lamas, and I think Chad Merriman. That meant we'd each have forty of them. We asked them what they wanted to work on, and almost to a man, they yelled, "head scissor take down!" Swell. (they had seen us pulling them off in competition)
We had no mats and a hardwood floor. But they didn't care. So neither did we. It turned out to be a bootload of fun and other than some black and blues, everyone was okay. It was two hours long and we each got a G-note. Nice work when you can get it. :)

To me, taking a seminar is like a day off doing something you love. And if you don't learn SOMETHING in a seminar you might need to rethink your career path. I can't wait to go to another seminar. I look for them all the time. And I'll bring cookies. I always bring cookies.
 

Latest Discussions

Top