Enhancements

Holmejr

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Many of our techniques are taught in a step by step or elongated form to teach proper body mechanics, weapon placement, good footwork, etc. Sometimes things are a little easier to “get” when there is a bit of space and things are simplified. As the student progresses, speed and power increases and things get tighter. Our instructor starts introducing “enhancements” as he sees fit. Today, because we had few students and they all were advanced beginners, we concentrated on enhancements to already familiar techniques. The students experiencing the real potential of the techniques really responded well and really got into it. I think today was a real game changer for them. I’m totally beat, but what a good class today!!

Just wondering if some of your classes or styles are structured/taught this way?

Btw, our Sunday class is from 1:30-5:00,

Eskrido De Alcuizar
Buena Park, CA
 

skribs

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I think the TMA way tends to be about making methodical, exaggerated movements until you can get the steps down, and then smoothing it out and adding in more details as you advance. This has been my experience in TKD and HKD. A white belt does a roundhouse kick step-by-step. A green belt does a roundhouse kick in one motion. A red belt has many different versions of the roundhouse kick depending on what they are doing.

In BJJ and Muay Thai, it's been different. The idea is to do things as realistically as you can, even in the beginner level. I've been told many times during drills that I need to be faster at doing a technique, when my problem is that I'm not even sure how to properly do it. An example is in BJJ, that when someone passes your guard, how you can invert and basically pivot on your shoulders to get back to guard. I was struggling with even figuring out how to pivot on my shoulders, and my coach was getting on me about being too slow and not training realistically.

Personally, I prefer the method of starting with form and building up realism over time.
 

Tony Dismukes

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I've been told many times during drills that I need to be faster at doing a technique, when my problem is that I'm not even sure how to properly do it. An example is in BJJ, that when someone passes your guard, how you can invert and basically pivot on your shoulders to get back to guard. I was struggling with even figuring out how to pivot on my shoulders, and my coach was getting on me about being too slow and not training realistically.
That seems odd to me, but perhaps I'm not understanding the context. In drilling BJJ, I'm a big proponent of working as slowly as you need to in order to get the technique smooth and precise before working on speed. Sometimes I have my students focus on executing certain moves without hesitation or pauses, but that isn't necessarily about actual speed. It's actually pretty common for me to tell students to slow down until they can get the movement correct.

Of course in actual sparring, some moves do have to be executed quickly. But generally the way to get there is to drill for smoothness and precision.
 

Bill Mattocks

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That seems odd to me, but perhaps I'm not understanding the context. In drilling BJJ, I'm a big proponent of working as slowly as you need to in order to get the technique smooth and precise before working on speed. Sometimes I have my students focus on executing certain moves without hesitation or pauses, but that isn't necessarily about actual speed. It's actually pretty common for me to tell students to slow down until they can get the movement correct.

Of course in actual sparring, some moves do have to be executed quickly. But generally the way to get there is to drill for smoothness and precision.
I wonder if it might be more used in a striking context. For example, we teach let's say upper body block. At first we're working on body mechanics, the proper positioning of the arm, stance to absorb the blow, etc, and not so much speed or testing it with applied power. Over time, we'll be doing two person drills that will speed up, requiring the block be implemented quickly, and increasing the power of the attack, such that the block has to work to avoid being hit with a fair amount of force. With advanced students, we're eventually whopping each other with a good deal of force. An incorrect block would simply collapse. Bruises would result.

I can understand where something like that might not have much applicability in a grappling sense?
 

skribs

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That seems odd to me, but perhaps I'm not understanding the context. In drilling BJJ, I'm a big proponent of working as slowly as you need to in order to get the technique smooth and precise before working on speed. Sometimes I have my students focus on executing certain moves without hesitation or pauses, but that isn't necessarily about actual speed. It's actually pretty common for me to tell students to slow down until they can get the movement correct.

Of course in actual sparring, some moves do have to be executed quickly. But generally the way to get there is to drill for smoothness and precision.
This also may just be an issue of specific people at my gym not knowing how to properly teach beginners. This is a different person than the other thread's rant on telegraphing, but it's the same general idea.

I do learn a lot of great stuff from this guy. But sometimes I think he expects more of me than I'm able to give.
 

Tony Dismukes

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I wonder if it might be more used in a striking context. For example, we teach let's say upper body block. At first we're working on body mechanics, the proper positioning of the arm, stance to absorb the blow, etc, and not so much speed or testing it with applied power. Over time, we'll be doing two person drills that will speed up, requiring the block be implemented quickly, and increasing the power of the attack, such that the block has to work to avoid being hit with a fair amount of force. With advanced students, we're eventually whopping each other with a good deal of force. An incorrect block would simply collapse. Bruises would result.

I can understand where something like that might not have much applicability in a grappling sense?
Yeah, speed comes into play much sooner in a striking context. I might have one of my boxing students slow down for a little bit to correct some aspect of their form, but then they do need to get back to drilling with speed as part of regular practice.

For ground grappling, there aren't many moves that need to be drilled with speed. Speed came come into play for certain techniques during sparring, but it's pretty much the final element and shouldn't be a focus while learning the moves.

Takedowns are somewhere in-between striking and ground grappling. A lot of moves do require a certain degree of speed and /or explosiveness and that does need to be drilled at some point. But I usually wouldn't have a student focus on that until they had spent the time practicing smoothness and precision.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Should you train

1. slow first until everything is perfect before you can speed up. or
2. normal speed to start with and try to adjust your body method along with it?

During the beginner stage of the Chinese wrestling training, your opponent throws a hook punch at you. You have to wrap his punching arm, get him into a head lock, and throw him in 1 move. Your opponent's punch won't slow down because you are a beginner.

The follow video was recorded during the beginner training. The instructor gives the order 1, 2.

- 1 is your opponent punches you.
- 2 is you throw your opponent.

This approach is to get used to the speed first. and make everything perfect along the way.

Today, I look back. I like this training method very much.

IMO, 1 < 2.

 
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Darren

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Very very important to get the basics down that is the foundation!
 

isshinryuronin

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Even a basic throw, done fast with power, will leave you in a very bad position if not executed with correct hip and leg positioning and proper pivoting. IMO, MA technique is best learned in the following steps:

1. form/positioning
2. timing/coordination
3. speed/relaxation
4. power/control

To try to teach speed before the proper form and execution is not an efficient way to learn a technique (that will work). Wyatt Earp was not fast on the draw - he was a successful gunfighter because he was accurate.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Even a basic throw, done fast with power, will leave you in a very bad position if not executed with correct hip and leg positioning and proper pivoting.
One of my guys has 21-3 Sanda record under his belt. When he competed in form, his score was only C+.

Which is more important?

1. 100% correct technique with bad timing/speed.
2. 80% correct technique with good timing/speed.

I have seen too many people with 100% perfect technique. But without good timing/speed, they can't last 10 seconds in the ring, or on the mat.

I have also seen many people with only 80% perfect technique, but with good timing/speed, they can fight well in the ring, or on the mat.

There is one training that I love it much.

- Both A and B stand in punching distance.
- A throw a punch at B's face as fast as he can.
- B leans back 30 degrees, wraps A's punching arm, gets A into head lock, spins B's body, horseback kick A's legs off the ground, and throws A.

If B doesn't lean back 30-degree, A's punch can land on B's face. B has to do so much within 1/2 second.

I assume one can train this in 2 different ways.

1. A will punch slow so B will have plenty of time to have perfect body method.
2. A always uses fast speed to force B to develop good timing/speed along with perfect body method.

IMO 1 < 2.
 
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skribs

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Even a basic throw, done fast with power, will leave you in a very bad position if not executed with correct hip and leg positioning and proper pivoting. IMO, MA technique is best learned in the following steps:

1. form/positioning
2. timing/coordination
3. speed/relaxation
4. power/control

To try to teach speed before the proper form and execution is not an efficient way to learn a technique (that will work). Wyatt Earp was not fast on the draw - he was a successful gunfighter because he was accurate.
Can you expand on this concept?

I like the abstract, I want to read the article.
 

drop bear

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That seems odd to me, but perhaps I'm not understanding the context. In drilling BJJ, I'm a big proponent of working as slowly as you need to in order to get the technique smooth and precise before working on speed. Sometimes I have my students focus on executing certain moves without hesitation or pauses, but that isn't necessarily about actual speed. It's actually pretty common for me to tell students to slow down until they can get the movement correct.

Of course in actual sparring, some moves do have to be executed quickly. But generally the way to get there is to drill for smoothness and precision.

The only thing I can think of is there are one or two things I will show people wrong because it makes the move more intuitive.

So for example a fireman's carry done properly always makes people want to roll on their back.

So I start with a Goober version where they just sort of go to both knees and shuck them over the top.

Then when they figure out the right direction I do the foot work. Or knee work. I guess.


So that leg at the end. Everyone rolls on to their back because of it.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Very very important to get the basics down that is the foundation!
In another thread, I have stated that I always believe one should establish strong foundation before he stars to cross train.

The question is how good foundation is enough. Do you have to wait until you can get all A scores before you can graduate from your elementary school? Or you can graduate from your elementary school with some A, some B, and some C.

The concern is, you can always "enhance" your foundation when you get older (solo training). It's harder to develop your timing/speed during your old age (partner training).
 

isshinryuronin

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I have seen too many people with 100% perfect technique. But without good timing/speed, they can't last 10 seconds in the ring, or on the mat.
I have also seen many people with only 80% perfect technique, but with good timing/speed, they can fight well in the ring, or on the mat.

'Can you expand on this concept?
I like the abstract, I want to read the article.
Of course, form alone will not do much for you, other than look pretty. It's just the first step I put when teaching, followed by timing, speed and power. While it's true a weakness in one may be compensated in part by the others, up to a point. Thus KFW's reference to just 80% perfect technique needed with 100% timing/speed. But what is left out in the first sentence is what about 80% timing/speed and 100% perfect technique form. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I put form first as without it the other elements will lose efficacy. Without it, a throw may work with brute strength (except against greater brute strength), but with good form a lot less strength will be needed. ("Work smarter, not harder"). One may execute a high block with great speed and power, but if the angle/positioning is wrong the punch will slip thru. Sloppiness is seldom effective, and in MA, often painful. A sloppy punch can result in hyperextension of the elbow, a sprained wrist or finger, for example. (I've experienced all of these, and others more even painful by being lax in form)

I think form gives the technique its meaning (this is kind of abstract and too hard to explain in this post - past my bedtime). The other elements aid in the expression of it. I put timing second (to be clear, NOT tactical timing, but biomechanical timing, coordinating body movement). Again, second not in importance, just as the second step. IMO, this is the most important element, and offers the greatest potential for improvement and development.

I put power last as when the other elements are present, good power will naturally result without too much extra effort. The last thing I'd like to express is that speed and power are exhilarating. It feels good and too easy to get enamored with - at the expense of the other elements and can lead to overconfidence against a skilled opponent.

I think that's the full article.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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That seems odd to me, but perhaps I'm not understanding the context. In drilling BJJ, I'm a big proponent of working as slowly as you need to in order to get the technique smooth and precise before working on speed. Sometimes I have my students focus on executing certain moves without hesitation or pauses, but that isn't necessarily about actual speed. It's actually pretty common for me to tell students to slow down until they can get the movement correct.

Of course in actual sparring, some moves do have to be executed quickly. But generally the way to get there is to drill for smoothness and precision.
And this post, my friend is why I would dearly love to train BJJ with you.
 
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