Congresswoman Giffords Shot in Tucson

[Slipper]

Oh come on seriously..
I can not be the only one wondering what the hell a Mackeral Snapper is???.....

As to the turn the thread has gone in regards to mentally ill, or whackjobs, and whether they deserve a place in society or not..

Actually, the discussion turned to how those with mental illness should not be lumped in the same category as criminals.

I think that psychologists, psychiatrists, and the entire industry are frantically trying to classify every single person with some type of mental illness or another to the point that the vast majority of us are going to be classified with some type of illness.
I think that it would be better to classify people as either able to function in society, able to function in society with help, or unable to function in society with or without help.
The problem is who is going to make those assessments and what does it mean to those that are deemed unable to function? I cant answer those questions its to broad based, but I do know if I ever have some mentally ill person come on property, come at my family, or myself, or my friends and threaten us in any manner then I am not going to wait to classify him, ill let the coroner figure that out.

Chances are good that the mentally ill frequently walk on your property. You may not recognize them because they are delivery people, mail carriers, repairmen, etc.

You're better off not worrying about the mentally ill and instead worrying about anyone with criminal mischief in mind.

I dont know how this loughner guy came across, but it seems he was competant enough to walk among normal people without standing out unnecessarily, but not competant enough to attend a college without clearance from a doctor that he wasnt a danger to others.. Apparantly there was some type of warning there.
I fortunately come from a family line that other then having a tendancy to be aggressive, and successful does not have any problems fitting in with society and endangering anyone other then the idiots who deserve to be endangered. Unfortunately that leaves me at a loss to understand these..whackjobs...or mentally ill people, and also leaves me with no desire to waste my time worrying about them.

I truly hope that you never have to worry about anyone in your family facing mental illness. I'm sure you realize that people who have job loss or suffer tragic accidents can lead to depression, etc. Your family not having these troubles seems to be cause for thankfulness (not boasting). Of course, I've never been one to tempt karma.

I have many more important goals and desires to fulfill for my family and myself. I also do not like being forced to pay an ever increasing amount of my own money and resources for other people to handle the mentally ill. so whats the answer? I am simply done paying any more, if the burdon on myself and my family is placed any higher I am leaving, and then the rest of you will be left dealing with even fewer dollars to deal with these types... and I know for a fact I am not alone, thousands, probably hundreds of thousands out there are just like me. So what do we do? Accept it??? Or move somewhere away from it so we dont have to accept it? Somehow I dont think the later is even allowed.... but /shrug it is what is it is.

You're not the first person to wonder about what should be done with those who have a disability or mental illness. Hitler included them in his list of people to kill.

 

[Flea]

This isn't really a response to anyone in particular. I just realized that I meant to include it in my earlier posts and forgot. Better late than never.

More than one-fourth of persons with severe mental illness are victims of violent crime in the course of a year, a rate 11 times higher than that of the general population, according to a study by researchers at Northwestern University. [ ... ] Victimization rates vary with the type of violent crime, said the researchers. People with mental illness were eight times more likely to be robbed, 15 times more likely to be assaulted, and 23 times more likely to be raped than was the general population. Theft of property from persons, rare in the general population at 0.2 percent, happens to 21 percent of mentally ill persons, or 140 times as often. Even theft of minor items from victims can increase their anxiety and worsen psychiatric symptoms, the researchers said.

“The direction of causality is the reverse of common belief: persons who are seriously mentally ill are far more likely to be the victims of violence than its initiators,” said Leon Eisenberg, M.D., professor emeritus of social medicine and health policy at Harvard Medical School, in an accompanying editorial. “The evidence produced by Linda Teplin et al. settles the matter beyond question.”

:asian:

 

[Blade96]

luckyxboxer, I have a mental illness - depression. also a tendency to aggressiveness caused by my past and events in my life such as severe bullying which i have written about on here before the latest being the ex. I am a nice person most of the time but sometimes i have behavior problems - a jekyll and hyde personality that manifest themselves in aggression such as breaking things for which my parents called the police on me in october and november. It was caused by how my ex treated me me being a victim of a controller and domestic violence - and my parents didnt help me when i lay in bed for nights crying and my mom wouldnt even give me a hug she said I'll only give you one if you cut out that stupid crying. I also have low self esteen, low confidence, care too much what others think of me, am distrustful of people, and dont like authority. Like cops. and psychologists, social workers, psychiatrists and so on.

I take anti - depressants now and i am glad our system - yes other people pay into it - helps pay for the treatment and helping of people like myself, I get help to pay for my medication. Its a bit insensitive what you wrote there.

 

[Sukerkin]

Crazy people need to be dealt with in a realistic way, if you are not able to live in society then you should not be living in society.

<snip>

But its not the Politically correct thing to do so we allow crazy people to be in charge of themselves release them into society and then they stop taking meds and hurt people. All in the name of being the "Nice Guy"

Ladies and gentlemen, I think that in this case, from the reactions I read above, that what Ballen was saying has been misunderstood. He was not demonising the mentally ill but rather advocating that proper care and control is required when dealing with them.

I don't think that such things occur because of an overly PC attempt not to be prejudicial in dealing with the mentally ill. Such things occur because it costs money to keep people in secure hospital facilities.

Over here in England, we have a 'proper' National Health system (or at least we did) and even here glorious Thatcher, as a cost cutting excercise, introduced the concept of 'Care in the Community' which was the disaster waiting to happen that Ballen ascribed to 'political correctness'.

Mental illness is a complex horror and is one we seldom face up to as a society, preferring not to talk about it. The percentage of the population that are mentally ill is very high, as has been pointed out earlier. Thankfully, for most of us that are afflicted, that dysfunction is mild but for some it is severe in the extreme. I have lived with the spectre of this for pretty much all of my life, since I was ten in fact, as a close family member is manic depressive paranoid schizophrenic (collect the set ).

Thankfully, if that is the right word, her violence turns upon herself rather than on others but it could so very easily have been different. One of the worst nights of my life was disarming her of the knife she was busy using to fill herself with extra holes that were surplus to requirements - a minute later and I would have been too late (as it was it was touch and go for a while).

When such violence is externalised, focussed on an issue or a cause, we get the distressing outcomes that this thread is about. Could it have been prevented? Almost certainly. But as a society you need to contribute collectively to fund the means to do so - which is something that I do not think will happen. Thus, tragedies such as this one will happen when a persons distorted reality leads them to irrational and catastrophic action.

My deepst and most sincere sympathies to those slain in this heart-breaking incident, particularly the young girl who was taken before she'd had much chance to live. The fact that, in the public media at least, this has already become a political talking point says some very bad things about the American system that need to be addressed one way or another. I know that all important things are 'politics' at the end of the day but each parties supporters trying to use this as a 'chip' in the game is shameful beyond expression.

 

[Carol]

I think that it would be better to classify people as either able to function in society, able to function in society with help, or unable to function in society with or without help.
The problem is who is going to make those assessments and what does it mean to those that are deemed unable to function?

BTW - Those criteria are already in place, and are used not only in mental health circles, but with people that have other potentially impairing disorders/diseases, particularly those that affect the brain or central nervous system, and is often communicated both inside and outside clinical practice (ie: vocational services)

 

[chrispillertkd]

Oh come on seriously..
I can not be the only one wondering what the hell a Mackeral Snapper is???.....

It's a slur referring to a Catholic. It's used by people like the "intelligensia" of the Klan or those who would use words I cannot even post on a BBS to describe African Americans or Jews.

Why, who was using it?

Pax,

Chris

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

It's a slur referring to a Catholic. It's used by people like the "intelligensia" of the Klan or those who would use words I cannot even post on a BBS to describe African Americans or Jews.

Why, who was using it?

Pax,

Chris

never heard that before, Flea was using it as an example of what mentally ill people feel like when they are called something like whackjob... or associates of mentally ill people.. she listed a bunch of slurs, that she equates to whackjob, this was one of them

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

luckyxboxer, I have a mental illness - depression. also a tendency to aggressiveness caused by my past and events in my life such as severe bullying which i have written about on here before the latest being the ex. I am a nice person most of the time but sometimes i have behavior problems - a jekyll and hyde personality that manifest themselves in aggression such as breaking things for which my parents called the police on me in october and november. It was caused by how my ex treated me me being a victim of a controller and domestic violence - and my parents didnt help me when i lay in bed for nights crying and my mom wouldnt even give me a hug she said I'll only give you one if you cut out that stupid crying. I also have low self esteen, low confidence, care too much what others think of me, am distrustful of people, and dont like authority. Like cops. and psychologists, social workers, psychiatrists and so on.

I take anti - depressants now and i am glad our system - yes other people pay into it - helps pay for the treatment and helping of people like myself, I get help to pay for my medication. Its a bit insensitive what you wrote there.

I dont consider this a mental illness, it sounds like weakness to me.
I could care less if I come across as insensitive, I am more concerned about being honest, and trying to say what I mean. I am all for changing my mind if good or great information is provided that changes it. Actually more then a few opinions I have had have been altered by people on this board, and usually they are peoples whos opinions I usually read and shake my head in disgust to.
Like I said though I am not here to be your friend, or worry about your fragile sense of self worth. You also should not give a damn what I think its not a mental illness in my opinion but weakness. I know that it is popular to be politically correct and give everyone the benefit of the doubt and make them feel all warm and fuzzy, but I dont buy into that.
I dont post to make anyone feel bad, but I also dont post to make anyone feel good either.
I am simply putting as directly as possible my thoughts so that I can see what people counter them with.. countering them facts, or an opinion is good because I think about it, countering it with sayings its not a nice thing to say means nothing to me. Just because you sometimes get so angry you break things doesnt mean your mentally ill, it simply means you have no self control. Being upset because you allowed yourself to get caught up with an abuser and manipulator is just going to keep you in that victim mindset.
I think men, and women, who touch their friends, or significant others in anger are scum and should be tossed in jail for it. I also think that those that are abused should leave... I have heard the arguments about why they dont before but they always seem to come down to ignorance for me. Ignorance of where to get help, how to get help, or some other thing. Ignorance is fixable, and maybe you should be mad at your parents for not giving you the skills to make better choices when it comes to relationships I dont know.
It sucks you got abused, however its not anyone elses problem, and you need to take control of it and move on.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Actually, the discussion turned to how those with mental illness should not be lumped in the same category as criminals.

Ok gotcha, thanks

Chances are good that the mentally ill frequently walk on your property. You may not recognize them because they are delivery people, mail carriers, repairmen, etc.

You're better off not worrying about the mentally ill and instead worrying about anyone with criminal mischief in mind.

Well my commen was specifically about mentally ill people doing something threatening, I think my comment was that I am not going to let someone slide simply because they have a mental illness, or appear to have a mental illness, if anything I am going to error on the side of my safety, and not theirs.


I truly hope that you never have to worry about anyone in your family facing mental illness. I'm sure you realize that people who have job loss or suffer tragic accidents can lead to depression, etc. Your family not having these troubles seems to be cause for thankfulness (not boasting). Of course, I've never been one to tempt karma.

It was not boasting, I was trying to share the fact that I do not have any first hand knowledge of dealing with a mentally ill person. No family, or friends, although I have some friends with brain damage who have mental issues such as remembering anything, or learning anything new.. not an illness in my opinion though.


You're not the first person to wonder about what should be done with those who have a disability or mental illness. Hitler included them in his list of people to kill.

so you dont like my comments and so you are going to insinuate on your reply that i want to mass murder them? Thats friggin ridiculous.

 

[Archangel M]

Depression..and years of living life "day by day" with all the baggage that goes with it is an enormous obstacle, but never play down the power of individual choice and motivation. Waiting for life to change leaves you nowhere. You have to be the deciding factor in where your life takes you.

Now..SEVERE mental illness. Like this guy. That may just require long term. Or even permanent placement. The days of the asylums may not be the answer. But not everybody can be (or should even attempt to be) "mainstreamed".

 

[Steve]

I dont consider this a mental illness, it sounds like weakness to me.
I could care less if I come across as insensitive, I am more concerned about being honest, and trying to say what I mean. I am all for changing my mind if good or great information is provided that changes it. Actually more then a few opinions I have had have been altered by people on this board, and usually they are peoples whos opinions I usually read and shake my head in disgust to.
Like I said though I am not here to be your friend, or worry about your fragile sense of self worth. You also should not give a damn what I think its not a mental illness in my opinion but weakness. I know that it is popular to be politically correct and give everyone the benefit of the doubt and make them feel all warm and fuzzy, but I dont buy into that.
I dont post to make anyone feel bad, but I also dont post to make anyone feel good either.
I am simply putting as directly as possible my thoughts so that I can see what people counter them with.. countering them facts, or an opinion is good because I think about it, countering it with sayings its not a nice thing to say means nothing to me. Just because you sometimes get so angry you break things doesnt mean your mentally ill, it simply means you have no self control. Being upset because you allowed yourself to get caught up with an abuser and manipulator is just going to keep you in that victim mindset.
I think men, and women, who touch their friends, or significant others in anger are scum and should be tossed in jail for it. I also think that those that are abused should leave... I have heard the arguments about why they dont before but they always seem to come down to ignorance for me. Ignorance of where to get help, how to get help, or some other thing. Ignorance is fixable, and maybe you should be mad at your parents for not giving you the skills to make better choices when it comes to relationships I dont know.
It sucks you got abused, however its not anyone elses problem, and you need to take control of it and move on.

If someone posted that they had cancer, would you tell them that this was weakness as well? If someone had diabetes, would you recommend that they just get over it?

I'm with you to an extent. Sometimes people who are really nothing more than a malingerers hide behind bogus diagnosis. My experience has been that most of these people haven't actually been diagnosed by a medical professional, but instead kind of identify with the symptoms. "That's my OCD coming out." That sort of thing. I can't tell you how often that one in particular comes up. And I also believe that these people contribute to some of the misconceptions that surround mental illness.

There's also a misconception that people who suffer from clinical depression have more than a superficial relation to people who are "depressed." That most of us have been depressed at one time in our lives can mislead us into thinking that we understand what it means to be depressed in the clinical sense.

Point is, most people think they know more about mental illness than they actually know, and this argument from a position of ignorance can lead people to be crass.

 

[Big Don]

These, by the way, the same "HATEFUL RHETORIC CROSS HAIRS" on the Palin map, aren't cross hairs at all, they are CROP MARKS...

Contrast with the Bulls eyes on the DLC's map.

 

[ballen0351]

Always good to have a sympathetic attitude towards mental illness which can touch anyone at any time btw. One in three people in the Western world will have a mental illness sometime in their lives, it's nice that people have a good attitude towards it so when you find yourself in need of help, it will be there for you.

I'm not saying eveyone with a mental illness should be locked away. But there are people out there that should not be allowed in society because they are dangerous. And atleast in this country there's always a push to let people out that should not be out. This shooter apparently had teachers in college that knew he was nuts and didn't do anything. Most people that do stuff like this are known to be nuts and they are not put away when they should be and they end up killing people.
2 officers I knew here were gunned down by a nut that had been in and out of mental hospitals most of his life.
I don't see why we think it's a good idea to allow crazy people to be incharge of taking their own meds they are crazy why should they be trusted?
we have mental health warrants here where we can take crazys into custody and take them to a hospital. Docs, police, and judges and only ones that can sign one. 75% of the ones we do are on the same people over and over until they either kill themselves or get arrested for a crimes and sent away. When all along they should have been locked up in a treatment center.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Depression..and years of living life "day by day" with all the baggage that goes with it is an enormous obstacle, but never play down the power of individual choice and motivation. Waiting for life to change leaves you nowhere. You have to be the deciding factor in where your life takes you.

Now..SEVERE mental illness. Like this guy. That may just require long term. Or even permanent placement. The days of the asylums may not be the answer. But not everybody can be (or should even attempt to be) "mainstreamed".

Mainstreaming is a difficult agenda. Not only do you have to trust people to take their meds, you need to stay on top of changing the meds when need be. When a murderer is found to be on a med, it is a pretty safe bet they have been on it too long. It is an understatement to say mental health is under-funded.
Sean

 

[Archangel M]

We have the ability to "force" suicidal people into the psych center if they are a danger to themselves or others. most of the time the person is back at home the following morning.

 

[Slipper]

so you dont like my comments and so you are going to insinuate on your reply that i want to mass murder them? Thats friggin ridiculous.

You're right I didn't like your comments.

I don't think for a minute that you want to mass murder those with mental illness or disabilities so calm down. That comment is based on a historical perspective. I'm a state trained advocate for those with disabilities (including mental illness) and for two months we studied the history of how those with disabilities were treated. It is a fact that they were murdered during that time in gas chambers or experimented upon. They were also sold as curiousities to carnivals, abandoned to die and crowded into asylums. You seem to have a distinct lack of concern regarding those with mental illness and their well-being. If it offends you that Hitler had the same lack of concern, perhaps you should do some soul searching.

Well my commen was specifically about mentally ill people doing something threatening, I think my comment was that I am not going to let someone slide simply because they have a mental illness, or appear to have a mental illness, if anything I am going to error on the side of my safety, and not theirs.

If anyone threatens your safety, you should protect yourself and your loved ones. Nobody expects you to jeopardize your safety. There is a distinct difference in what we both are saying but we ultimately agree. You seem to be saying that you will defend yourself against any mentally ill person who threatens you - I am saying that you should defend yourself against any person who threatens you. Again, mental illness should not be lumped into the same category as a criminal.

It was not boasting, I was trying to share the fact that I do not have any first hand knowledge of dealing with a mentally ill person. No family, or friends, although I have some friends with brain damage who have mental issues such as remembering anything, or learning anything new.. not an illness in my opinion though.

Okay, I understand that part better now.

 

[ballen0351]

No one is suggesting that people who are a danger to themselves or others are turned loose on the streets to kill and maim, the general feeling it that blaming all mentally ill people for the actions of one person who is allegedly mentally ill is bang out of order.

but that's what happens more often then not. One of the worst cases of this I was involved in directly was a woman tried to set her house on fire with her kids inside. I myself did a mental health warrant on her. 2 days later she was released and 1 week after that we found her hanging from a baseball backstop she hung herself with a purse strap.

everyone can agree there are different degrees of mental illness. There's functional, nonfunctional, then there is dangerous and sadly the dangerous ones are smart enough to know the right things to say to the docs to be released.

 

[Empty Hands]

These, by the way, the same "HATEFUL RHETORIC CROSS HAIRS" on the Palin map, aren't cross hairs at all, they are CROP MARKS...

Keep on spinnin', tiny dancer.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

You're right I didn't like your comments.

I don't think for a minute that you want to mass murder those with mental illness or disabilities so calm down. That comment is based on a historical perspective. I'm a state trained advocate for those with disabilities (including mental illness) and for two months we studied the history of how those with disabilities were treated. It is a fact that they were murdered during that time in gas chambers or experimented upon. They were also sold as curiousities to carnivals, abandoned to die and crowded into asylums. You seem to have a distinct lack of concern regarding those with mental illness and their well-being. If it offends you that Hitler had the same lack of concern, perhaps you should do some soul searching.

no there is a big difference and if you cant see its because your blinded by wanting to lash out at anyone who doesnt side with you on the subject. I am actually indifferent, in that I dont know what the answer is, I believe in basic human rights, and have no interest in killing anyone but the worst of the worst, the criminal murders, serial killers, child molestors, rapists, etc. Hitler obviously was not indifferent he did care and sought to exterminate them, if you can not see the difference then your probably in need of mental help yourself.

If anyone threatens your safety, you should protect yourself and your loved ones. Nobody expects you to jeopardize your safety. There is a distinct difference in what we both are saying but we ultimately agree. You seem to be saying that you will defend yourself against any mentally ill person who threatens you - I am saying that you should defend yourself against any person who threatens you. Again, mental illness should not be lumped into the same category as a criminal.

I am of the distinct state of mind that anyone who threatens me is mentally insane. I dont believe a person in their right mind would threaten me.

Okay, I understand that part better now.

Like I said previously, my comments are straight to the point, not meant to anger, but not meant to sugarcoat either. I try to simply say exactly what I am thinking, how I am thinking it. When I have a done to pick with someone or something I do not make any hidden attempts at it I am pretty straight forward and outright with my anger or feelings.

 

[crushing]

Keep on spinnin', tiny dancer.

Bullseye? They look more like the crosshairs in the finderscope accessory on my telescope than any bullseye.