Well, with what just happened, that take down of the person shoving an unknown package at the tea party person has some merit now doesn't it. Show the video, I'll watch it.
Congresswoman Giffords Shot in Tucson
- Thread starter Bill Mattocks
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Steve, you make an excellent point here and I thank you. I'm not singling you out here with this point except for the use of a particular word ...
As long as were discussing the effect that inflammatory language can have in escalating situations, I feel that it's important that we get our vocabulary straight here. The correct term is "mental illness." A person with mental illness is referred to as just that - a person with mental illness. Or, in some circles, as a "client" or a "consumer" of mental health services.
Terms like whack job, froot loop, nuts, rowing with one oar, and, yes, crazy are all slurs on the same base level as f#ggot, n1gger, mackerel-snapper, c%nt, and kike. Such language is demeaning not just to its target, but to the people using it and to the entire community. If you're not sure what language to use in referring to someone with a mental illness, visualize your best friend in the ICU fighting for his life after a suicide attempt. If you wouldn't want people referring to him like that, it's probably not a good term for you to use either.
And, as with any other slur, you never really know who's hearing it. As a "consumer" peer advocate I'm used to being open with my own situation because I know it's making a positive difference in my community. Not everyone with a mental illness feels that way, and it's no wonder with the social stigma imposed on us. But please understand that the fact that I'm willing to open about it does not mean that I'm the only one. I've had several people approach me privately in the 2+ years I've been on this forum. And there are others here with loved ones who struggle with mental illness too. So please, be aware of what you say. It can have a huge ripple effect beyond the simple ego buzz of sounding off online.
The rush to judgement and media analysis of the AZ shooting reminds me of this one: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/23/census-worker-hanged-with_n_297114.html
By the sound of it she has been very lucky in who she has had helping her, firstly a doctor at the scene then the doctor at the hosptial who has been in Afghan. It's hopeful I think though they doctors won't speculate on how she'll recover, I think it's safe to say she won't be the same person either mentally or physically.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12148446
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/seealso/2011/01/see_also_media_spotlight_turns.html
A lady with sense....
"Meanwhile, Arizona Republic columnist Linda Valdez, warns against a rush to assign blame:
To the world, what happened Saturday is referred to as a "killing spree in Arizona." For Tucson, it is a very personal pain. Gabby is the kind of hometown girl you can be proud of for all the good, old-fashioned reasons. She's poised, intelligent, well-spoken. And tough... The debate over the consequences of ugly rhetoric began long before the victims fell Saturday. It requires winners and losers. As Tucson processes the very personal pain of what happened to Gabrielle Giffords and others on a beautiful sunny Saturday, the state and the nation have a model of behaviour that does not require blame. Republicans and Democrats - political friends and foes - came together to express compassion after Saturday's tragedy. If those involved could hold that level of civility, we'd all be better off."
Blade96
Senior Master
i lol'd
Oh puh - lease.
Anyway R.I.P.
and i hope the survivors recover ok.
and Bill M. I know what you mean, people would be railing on illegal aliens if the shooter was one. But this is a sympathy thread, to sympathize with victims and their families it isnt really the time nor place. so if you could like shhhhh for now, it would be nice.
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Archangel M
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This is the Study. Not the Hall of Memorials...."sympathy thread"?
Steve
Mostly Harmless
A person who crosses over into premeditated murder moves into a completely different arena. There is a huge difference between mentally ill and a whackjob, and until a qualified medical professional declares this guy mentally incapable of knowing the difference between right and wrong, whackjob he will remain in my mind. It is a term I use specifically to differentiate between someone who IS mentally ill, and someone who does things like this.
This may be a blind spot for me. I'll admit it; people like this enrage me. It's true, and maybe I should be more generous to him, but I can't find it in my heart to do so. If he has a diagnosed illness, I would bet you dollars to donuts that this psychotic break is in large part a direct result of his choosing at some point to skip a dose of his medication.
If a person has a siezure disorder and just decides to stop taking their medication (heck, it's been over a year since their last seizure), and as a result has a grand mal while behind the wheel of a car, killing several people in an accident, is that person responsible for the deaths? In my opinion, yes. Absolutely. In the same way, a mentally ill person becomes a whackjob when he decides to go off his meds and as a result ends up shooting and killing several people.
I know that I'm jumping to conclusions, and I readily admit that. Let's wait and see if I'm right or not, but as I said, I'm just waiting for them to say that he's got x, y and z mental illness and wasn't taking his prescribed medication.
A column by Andrew Klavan on the lefts reaction to the shooting.
http://www.city-journal.org/2011/eon0109ak.html
But while little useful can be said about the murders themselves, the rush to narrative of our dishonest and increasingly desperate leftist media does have to be addressed. The Left—which has been unable to discover any common feature uniting acts of Islamist violence worldwide—nonetheless instantly noticed a bridge between the Tucson shooting and its own political opponents. The Chicago Sun-Times ran a slavering editorial blaming “the right.” MSNBC’s Keith Olbermann and the Washington Post’s Eugene Robinson suggested that the killings were inspired by right-wing rhetoric. Politico’s Roger Simon did the same.
http://www.city-journal.org/2011/eon0109ak.html
But while little useful can be said about the murders themselves, the rush to narrative of our dishonest and increasingly desperate leftist media does have to be addressed. The Left—which has been unable to discover any common feature uniting acts of Islamist violence worldwide—nonetheless instantly noticed a bridge between the Tucson shooting and its own political opponents. The Chicago Sun-Times ran a slavering editorial blaming “the right.” MSNBC’s Keith Olbermann and the Washington Post’s Eugene Robinson suggested that the killings were inspired by right-wing rhetoric. Politico’s Roger Simon did the same.
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I wouldn't say we're on the same page exactly, but we share some paragraphs in common.
While Big Pharma and criminal prosecutors cast a rosy picture, psych medication really isn't that simple. First you need the right diagnosis. Psychiatry is as much an art as a science, and unlike most specialties of medicine where you can look at a sample under a microscope, the doctor has to rely on very subjective feedback from the patient to determine symptoms and the efficacy of any given treatment. It typically takes 2-6 weeks for any psych medicine to kick in. All of which means that it can literally take years to find a working combination of medications. And of course because everyone's body changes over time, that combination can stop being effective after a while and then you have to go through the trial and error prescription-go-round all over again. It's completely exasperating when you're in such pain that you can barely function. When you're already stuck in a paradigm of nihilism and helplessness, it's reasonable to be tempted to throw up your hands and walk away.
Also the drugs are far from perfect. They can have terrible side effects. Diabetes is a given for most people on antipsychotics. Mood stabilizers can cause seizures. Many medications cause tremors bad enough to mimic Parkinsons. They're not as widespread as they used to be, but neuroleptics tend to cause tardive dyskenesia - uncontrollable twitches, especially of facial muscles. (Try getting a job or a date when you can't stop winking and sticking out your tongue.) Medications often dull the intellect, sap a person of all their energy, or even aggravate existing conditions. People don't go off medication for fun. They do it because sometimes it really is better than the alternative.
Add to that the fact that most people are woefully ignorant about mental illness in the first place and what it takes to treat it. Remember Seng Hui Cho? His parents knew he had a serious problem and they were going to take him to church ... later. His professor knew he had a serious problem and brought him into her office repeatedly under the guise of helping him with his writing. Ultimately he was responsible for his actions, but there was a chain of failed good intentions in his wake. I'm guessing we'll find the same thing here.
That said, this guy ultimately made a very bad decision, and he needs to face the consequences like anyone else. I get that. It just always burns me up when people use these situations to demonize mental illness and consumers. After all, people with diabetes commit crimes too. So do Jews, African-Americans, fat people, and (gasp!) WASPs. It's stupid to paint any entire demographic as criminal, but I feel like I'm the only one pointing this out when a suspect has a mental illness.
ballen0351
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And thats the Problem. People always want to help crazy people. Want to be the "nice Guy" and help them. Crazy people need to be dealt with in a realistic way, if you are not able to live in society then you should not be living in society. 2 friends of mine were shot and killed by a nut job that had been in and out of mental hospitals his whole life. He should not have been able to be free and should not have been able to Gun Down 2 officers because his mom decided she could not deal with him anymore and called the police. Seng Cho should have been committed long before he committed his crimes. But its not the Politically correct thing to do so we allow crazy people to be in charge of themselves release them into society and then they stop taking meds and hurt people. All in the name of being the "Nice Guy"
Steve
Mostly Harmless
An excellent post.I wouldn't say we're on the same page exactly, but we share some paragraphs in common.
While Big Pharma and criminal prosecutors cast a rosy picture, psych medication really isn't that simple. First you need the right diagnosis. Psychiatry is as much an art as a science, and unlike most specialties of medicine where you can look at a sample under a microscope, the doctor has to rely on very subjective feedback from the patient to determine symptoms and the efficacy of any given treatment. It typically takes 2-6 weeks for any psych medicine to kick in. All of which means that it can literally take years to find a working combination of medications. And of course because everyone's body changes over time, that combination can stop being effective after a while and then you have to go through the trial and error prescription-go-round all over again. It's completely exasperating when you're in such pain that you can barely function. When you're already stuck in a paradigm of nihilism and helplessness, it's reasonable to be tempted to throw up your hands and walk away.
Also the drugs are far from perfect. They can have terrible side effects. Diabetes is a given for most people on antipsychotics. Mood stabilizers can cause seizures. Many medications cause tremors bad enough to mimic Parkinsons. They're not as widespread as they used to be, but neuroleptics tend to cause tardive dyskenesia - uncontrollable twitches, especially of facial muscles. (Try getting a job or a date when you can't stop winking and sticking out your tongue.) Medications often dull the intellect, sap a person of all their energy, or even aggravate existing conditions. People don't go off medication for fun. They do it because sometimes it really is better than the alternative.
Add to that the fact that most people are woefully ignorant about mental illness in the first place and what it takes to treat it. Remember Seng Hui Cho? His parents knew he had a serious problem and they were going to take him to church ... later. His professor knew he had a serious problem and brought him into her office repeatedly under the guise of helping him with his writing. Ultimately he was responsible for his actions, but there was a chain of failed good intentions in his wake. I'm guessing we'll find the same thing here.
That said, this guy ultimately made a very bad decision, and he needs to face the consequences like anyone else. I get that. It just always burns me up when people use these situations to demonize mental illness and consumers. After all, people with diabetes commit crimes too. So do Jews, African-Americans, fat people, and (gasp!) WASPs. It's stupid to paint any entire demographic as criminal, but I feel like I'm the only one pointing this out when a suspect has a mental illness.
I say things that are offensive sometimes without knowing it, such as in the "retarded" thread a few months back where it was pointed out to me how offensive this was for some people. Since that post, I've backed off of using that word. It's not that important, and I like to think that I'm articulate enough to find ways to make a point that aren't unnecessarily offensive. I appreciate being told about it, and try to respect peoples' wishes.
In this case, I have to admit that I used the term in a derogatory way. I'd use stronger language if it were acceptable on these boards. As I said, I am angry and I readily admit it. This guy killed a 9 year old girl who was there to meet a strong, female role model. I'm livid. This person may be mentally ill, but he is also a whackjob and every other derogatory term I might think of.
Always good to have a sympathetic attitude towards mental illness which can touch anyone at any time btw. One in three people in the Western world will have a mental illness sometime in their lives, it's nice that people have a good attitude towards it so when you find yourself in need of help, it will be there for you.
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EDIT: Sorry Tez, this was directed at Ballen. You beat me to it.
And that, my dear, is precisely why I dedicate so much of precious time and limited energy to educating the public. Sorry to break it to you, but human rights and civil liberties apply to everyone. Not just the people you happen to like.
People with mental illness are not the only people who commit crimes. Go to any prison and you'll see all kinds of diagnoses in the infirmary. Does that mean that everyone with cancer should be locked up as a public menace? Arthritics all have murder in their hearts? Diabetics aren't capable of living in society? Of course not. No one's destiny is helplessly at the mercy of their bodies.
I respect that you have strong feelings and came by them honestly, but that doesn't automatically make your perception reality. I would suggest, as humbly and lovingly as I can, that you take some time and educate yourself on this in order to find some peace with your past. With understanding comes healing.
That said, I think I've said everything I need to say on this topic for one thread. If anyone has any further questions you may PM me respectfully.
And that, my dear, is precisely why I dedicate so much of precious time and limited energy to educating the public. Sorry to break it to you, but human rights and civil liberties apply to everyone. Not just the people you happen to like.
People with mental illness are not the only people who commit crimes. Go to any prison and you'll see all kinds of diagnoses in the infirmary. Does that mean that everyone with cancer should be locked up as a public menace? Arthritics all have murder in their hearts? Diabetics aren't capable of living in society? Of course not. No one's destiny is helplessly at the mercy of their bodies.
I respect that you have strong feelings and came by them honestly, but that doesn't automatically make your perception reality. I would suggest, as humbly and lovingly as I can, that you take some time and educate yourself on this in order to find some peace with your past. With understanding comes healing.
That said, I think I've said everything I need to say on this topic for one thread. If anyone has any further questions you may PM me respectfully.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Okay. And this is me distancing myself from ballen, lest anyone think that I believe this by association.
Ballen, while anyone who does something like this deserves every punishment allowable by law, mental illness is exactly that: an illness. People don't blame cancer patients for their disease or expect them to just "shake out of it" and get better. A person who has schizophrenia is no more at fault for being sick than a person who has leukemia. Both are serious and both deserve every opportunity to live their lives.
My entire point is that, on the whole, unless you subscribe to the rationale that anyone who would commit murder is, by definition, mentally ill (a fallacy) more murders are committed by people who AREN'T mentally ill than by people who ARE. For every whackjob who goes on a killing spree, there are thousands of people who are mentally ill living full lives, are productive employees and parents of regular kids.
My point isn't to pen up the mentally ill and lock them all away. It's to endorse treating mental illness as we do physical illness, taking it seriously, not blaming people for what they can't control (being ill) but holding them accountable for what they can (taking their meds, being serious about treatment and being responsible for their actions).
And there are some people who need to be held against their will because they can't distinguish between right and wrong and are an imminent harm to themselves or others. These people should be treated involuntarily.
This basically sums it up.
Ballen, I'm sorry for your loss. I don't think Flea is advocating that those diagnosed with mental illness and considered dangerous roam the streets waving pistols. I believe the point is that anyone can commit a crime. To lump all those with mental illness into the same category with criminals is offensive and incorrect.
The people who commit crimes come from all walks of life, not just those with mental illness.
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It's also worth pointing out that this is one of the most eloquent illustrations of why people so often refuse treatment. Who wants to have people talk about them like this? Who wants to see themselves this way?
Worse, this attitude translates readily to serious real-world consequences like employment and housing discrimination. People get dumped by their spouses and estranged from their families simply for being diagnosed at all. Getting a mental health evaluation is not a casual decision, and a lot of that comes down to attitudes like this. Thanks Ballen. I guess we agree on something after all.
Always good to have a sympathetic attitude towards mental illness which can touch anyone at any time btw. One in three people in the Western world will have a mental illness sometime in their lives, it's nice that people have a good attitude towards it so when you find yourself in need of help, it will be there for you.
EDIT: Sorry Tez, this was directed at Ballen. You beat me to it.
And that, my dear, is precisely why I dedicate so much of precious time and limited energy to educating the public. Sorry to break it to you, but human rights and civil liberties apply to everyone. Not just the people you happen to like.
People with mental illness are not the only people who commit crimes. Go to any prison and you'll see all kinds of diagnoses in the infirmary. Does that mean that everyone with cancer should be locked up as a public menace? Arthritics all have murder in their hearts? Diabetics aren't capable of living in society? Of course not. No one's destiny is helplessly at the mercy of their bodies.
I respect that you have strong feelings and came by them honestly, but that doesn't automatically make your perception reality. I would suggest, as humbly and lovingly as I can, that you take some time and educate yourself on this in order to find some peace with your past. With understanding comes healing.
That said, I think I've said everything I need to say on this topic for one thread. If anyone has any further questions you may PM me respectfully.
And here, I find myself agreeing with Ballen, so please, do not hold it against me....
My mom headed the nursing staff of a large mental hospital for over 30 years... from looking away I learned more about mental health care than I ever wanted to know.
Sadly, they have not yet been able to find a surefire way to meet everybody's needs.
I have met several people who were about as crazy as the proverbial mad hatter, however they posed no harm to anybody. Yet, due to the time of their being they spend most of their lives in a closed institution.
On the other hand, the hospital also house the forensic ward, those people you don't ever want to share the streets with.
Thankfully the advances in the pharmaceutical sector have been enormous, so some of these people - not the forensic ones though - can enjoy limited freedom. However, in many cases you just can't predict an episode of this magnitude....
Then again, there is the tenor that Ballen refers to. It's all good, if we are all nice it all will be better.
It is not an easy answer.
No one is suggesting that people who are a danger to themselves or others are turned loose on the streets to kill and maim, the general feeling it that blaming all mentally ill people for the actions of one person who is allegedly mentally ill is bang out of order.
No more than generalizing other groups of people for the actions of a single or a few people.
Totally right, er, correct...
LuckyKBoxer
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Oh come on seriously..
I can not be the only one wondering what the hell a Mackeral Snapper is???.....
As to the turn the thread has gone in regards to mentally ill, or whackjobs, and whether they deserve a place in society or not..
I think that psychologists, psychiatrists, and the entire industry are frantically trying to classify every single person with some type of mental illness or another to the point that the vast majority of us are going to be classified with some type of illness.
I think that it would be better to classify people as either able to function in society, able to function in society with help, or unable to function in society with or without help.
The problem is who is going to make those assessments and what does it mean to those that are deemed unable to function? I cant answer those questions its to broad based, but I do know if I ever have some mentally ill person come on property, come at my family, or myself, or my friends and threaten us in any manner then I am not going to wait to classify him, ill let the coroner figure that out. I dont know how this loughner guy came across, but it seems he was competant enough to walk among normal people without standing out unnecessarily, but not competant enough to attend a college without clearance from a doctor that he wasnt a danger to others.. Apparantly there was some type of warning there.
I fortunately come from a family line that other then having a tendancy to be aggressive, and successful does not have any problems fitting in with society and endangering anyone other then the idiots who deserve to be endangered. Unfortunately that leaves me at a loss to understand these..whackjobs...or mentally ill people, and also leaves me with no desire to waste my time worrying about them. I have many more important goals and desires to fulfill for my family and myself. I also do not like being forced to pay an ever increasing amount of my own money and resources for other people to handle the mentally ill. so whats the answer? I am simply done paying any more, if the burdon on myself and my family is placed any higher I am leaving, and then the rest of you will be left dealing with even fewer dollars to deal with these types... and I know for a fact I am not alone, thousands, probably hundreds of thousands out there are just like me. So what do we do? Accept it??? Or move somewhere away from it so we dont have to accept it? Somehow I dont think the later is even allowed.... but /shrug it is what is it is.
I can not be the only one wondering what the hell a Mackeral Snapper is???.....
As to the turn the thread has gone in regards to mentally ill, or whackjobs, and whether they deserve a place in society or not..
I think that psychologists, psychiatrists, and the entire industry are frantically trying to classify every single person with some type of mental illness or another to the point that the vast majority of us are going to be classified with some type of illness.
I think that it would be better to classify people as either able to function in society, able to function in society with help, or unable to function in society with or without help.
The problem is who is going to make those assessments and what does it mean to those that are deemed unable to function? I cant answer those questions its to broad based, but I do know if I ever have some mentally ill person come on property, come at my family, or myself, or my friends and threaten us in any manner then I am not going to wait to classify him, ill let the coroner figure that out. I dont know how this loughner guy came across, but it seems he was competant enough to walk among normal people without standing out unnecessarily, but not competant enough to attend a college without clearance from a doctor that he wasnt a danger to others.. Apparantly there was some type of warning there.
I fortunately come from a family line that other then having a tendancy to be aggressive, and successful does not have any problems fitting in with society and endangering anyone other then the idiots who deserve to be endangered. Unfortunately that leaves me at a loss to understand these..whackjobs...or mentally ill people, and also leaves me with no desire to waste my time worrying about them. I have many more important goals and desires to fulfill for my family and myself. I also do not like being forced to pay an ever increasing amount of my own money and resources for other people to handle the mentally ill. so whats the answer? I am simply done paying any more, if the burdon on myself and my family is placed any higher I am leaving, and then the rest of you will be left dealing with even fewer dollars to deal with these types... and I know for a fact I am not alone, thousands, probably hundreds of thousands out there are just like me. So what do we do? Accept it??? Or move somewhere away from it so we dont have to accept it? Somehow I dont think the later is even allowed.... but /shrug it is what is it is.
