Complete System????

[Kirk]

I've heard time and time again about how Kenpo is a complete
system of self defense. I'm SOOO glad that my TKD instructor
made my big *** jump so much so often to kill my shins! Made
me look elsewhere, and finally finding EPAK.

Since I've started, I've noticed that a LOT of EPAK schools teach
some variation of Kali in their schools too. If EPAK is a complete
system, why do we study Kali/Escrima/Stick N' Knife? I was told
that it'll "help you learn flow" but that means I can learn flow by
concentrating all my efforts on kenpo, correct? By "complete
system" do they really mean "complete empty handed system" ?

I've even heard people say that cross training in another art for
the purpose of acheiving rank is counter productive, because if
I look hard enough, I'll see that's already in the EPAK
system.

What gives?

 

[Sandor]

hrm...

This is my take so if toes get trampled apologies in advance

Kenpo is a complete system unto itself, all the matches and category completions are there for you to discover. That said, Kenpo is an empty hand art, there are no weapons, no firearms training, no extensive grappling material and there is no internal health management in the system. The weapons techniques taught are empty handed techniques adapted to deal with the weapon presented. So there are indeed things that Kenpo doesn't cover in the day to day grind.

Many Kenpo practitioners study the Filipino arts for a variety of reasons. Some like to learn flow drills and then adapt them to their Kenpo repetior (get a class with Zach Whitson or chekout the Flow Hitting articles I wrote a while back for a brief overview). Others like to learn the Arnis, Kali, etc. because the tactical understanding required to disarm an oponent who has a weapon is much more indepth than Kenpo presents in its curricula. If you want to learn how to defend against a given weapon then you must first learn how that weapon is used by experienced pratitioners of weapons arts. From there you can start to build an understanding and defensive vocabulary to learn disarms etc.

As for 'Cross-Training' (which really refers to progressive resistance training concepts to enhance an athletes abilities in a given sport through the use of weights) I think what you mean is 'Cross-Learning' and that is a fine thing to do. Personally, I don't recommend it for ranks below brown/black as it is important to complete ones training in the basics before moving on. Master Planas put it like this 'I suggest study all you can or want to study like in going to college. You have a major and a minor and if you loaded yourself down with too many classes you could flunk out and not accomplish anything. So, just do what you can handle efficiently. It would be wise to study systems with similar styles of motion like the Indonesian and Filipino systems are very similar to Kenpo and would not cause any problems in learning. '

There you have it enjoy...

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Sandor
hrm...

This is my take so if toes get trampled apologies in advance
Kenpo is a complete system unto itself, all the matches and category completions are there for you to discover. That said, Kenpo is an empty hand art, there are no weapons, no firearms training, no extensive grappling material and there is no internal health management in the system. The weapons techniques taught are empty handed techniques adapted to deal with the weapon presented. So there are indeed things that Kenpo doesn't cover in the day to day grind.

Some of our toes have tacks on them so sorry for the return ouchie .........

I don't understand what you are saying, you contradict yourself.
You first say that Kenpo is a complete system unto itself left for you to discover ......... then you say that Kenpo is a limited to only being an "empty hand Art" with no further aspects of training involved. What's up with that!!

I'm sorry Sandor but I completely disagree with you on this! Don't tell me you that you buy into one persons belief that all you need to do is sit around and figure what techniques are similar and categorize all the base 154 that we have.... You must not have learned the "What if" at all.

If you are to swallow your own medicine...... then complete the category for this........
Explain to me why Mr. Parker in Infinite Insights Vol 1, page/s 46-48, explained to us about Self Defense and its methods of attack. They are....

Unarmed vs. Unarmed (we spend much time here)
Unarmed vs. Armed (we also spend some time here)
"ARMED VS. UNARMED" (this also should be examined)
"ARMED VS. ARMED" (this should also be developed)

If you just look at the curriculum from a limited perspective..... Yes, I supposed I would develop your understanding too. If you look at What Ed Parker himself penned....... He did it for a reason.... for us to learn the other Categories as well.... Discover them if you will since he didn't have time to finish his work. He certainly knew of the importance of these categories and we discussed it on many occasions.

Kenpo does have "everything within its boundaries" but not all its Kenpoists do, that is the problem.

Please don't mislead other of our awesome Art, they are beginners and are asking intelligent questions because many of the beginners read and want to understand why some instructors teach contrary material to what Ed Parker said and did.
This does confuse the students and makes it difficult to explain at times.

Sorry if I'm sharp, but Kenpo is my passion and nothing is geared toward anyone personally.
:Asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

KENPO is not limited, just some peoples understanding of KENPO.
(and I should add, the ability to articulate physically and orally the information they have to others.)

As aggressive as this sounds, I am not attacking Sandor - rather, I think this is a truism for all of us to acknowledge about ourselves. I am always learning and looking to learn even more. If it starts in another art, usually it does not, but when it does, I put it back into a Kenpo framework ... or rather I find where within the Kenpo framework, that it already resided ... and I just did not recognize the technique or bit of knowledge until someone beat me over the head with it.

Slow to learn, slow to forget,
Michael B.

 

[Roland]

I have always looked at it in two different ways...

Martial Arts is not for everybody. Those who need, want, choose to do Martial Arts have many 'styles' to look into.
Kenpo is one of them. The 'style' we choose is not for everyone who chooses to do Martial Arts. It might be for you, it might be for me, but that does not mean it is for everyone.
There are so many stlyes because there are so many different people. :soapbox:


If there was a truly complete system out there, we would all be doing it.
:bomb:

 

[Sandor]

Mr.C,

Ouch! I knew i felt something sharp under foot hehe...

For every person Kenpo is where their training takes it. Kenpo is imho the most complete art there is. However, when I wanted to learn how to use/defend against sticks and knives I went elsewhere(progressive arnis) being of the belief that systems that primarily focus on the use of a particular item would be the best place to start. When I wanted information on groundfighting I went and learned shootfighting(ironically from a Kenpo guy) and worked on those skills. When I wanted to learn more about healing arts I went elsewhere too. I don't mean to mislead the beginners out there who ask questions rather just open up the possibilities to them that the big picture is really REALLY big and as we wander around the other arts we always come full circle to the one that makes the most sense; Kenpo.

My point is that the mastery of a given weapon comes from the learning the system the weapon came from. In retrospect, I can see and feel Kenpo in the use of the weapons and that for me is why I always stick to Kenpo as the main focus of my personal studies. If I want to learn Iai-Do's sword techniques and disarms I will go there not because of some void in Kenpo that overlooks people walking down the street with a 38" blade hanging from their belt but because that is where that information is taught by people who specialize in that particular skill.

Cross-Learning in the other stuff has always been a fun aside for me. The idea being to continue to expand the horizons of my personal training. Take Heaven 6 for example, if you look at it from the Kenpo perspective you will see five swords in there. I often relate the two in class because even though one is not Kenpo, Kenpo is in there. The stick drill makes for fun work and improves the flow of the empty handed technique. The hubid drills are perfect for getting people to flow better and I use them extensively.

A little disagreement never hurt, in fact, it is good for everyone to see as many sides of the picture as possible and form their opinions from there. As always Mr.C, I've enjoyed the brain chow

Peace,
Sandor

ps.. thanks for the chat earlier today, I will call again soon

 

[tonbo]

Personally, I look at the martial arts as a banquet table, brimming over with all kinds of food of all types.

Some people are there for the steak, some for the salads, some want the pizza, and some, just the dessert. We come to the table knowing already what we like (as martial artists), but free to sample some of everything. What we like, we take some of, what we don't, we leave alone. Sometimes, we may try something a little different, knowing that if we don' t like it, the "meat and taters" or the veggieburger (depending on your preference) is always there.

I play with a lot of different styles and forms, looking at what makes each what they are. I don't claim to be an expert in any, Kenpo included. However, Kenpo is my base, and quite complete, in my opinion. Thus, when I sample from other styles or other systems, I always try to "Kenpoize" what I learned--how does it fit into what I know? Yeah, I may learn a little Kali or Tai Chi, but I tend to return to asking, "So, how do the Kenpo principles I know work with this?".

All this thinking about a banquet has made me hungry....time to go have lunch...

Take what you want from the banquet, and come back for seconds....or thirds....or more.....

Peace--

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by tonbo

Personally, I look at the martial arts as a banquet table, brimming over with all kinds of food of all types.

Some people are there for the steak, some for the salads, some want the pizza, and some, just the dessert. We come to the table knowing already what we like (as martial artists), but free to sample some of everything. What we like, we take some of, what we don't, we leave alone. Sometimes, we may try something a little different, knowing that if we don' t like it, the "meat and taters" or the veggieburger (depending on your preference) is always there.

I play with a lot of different styles and forms, looking at what makes each what they are. I don't claim to be an expert in any, Kenpo included. However, Kenpo is my base, and quite complete, in my opinion. Thus, when I sample from other styles or other systems, I always try to "Kenpoize" what I learned--how does it fit into what I know? Yeah, I may learn a little Kali or Tai Chi, but I tend to return to asking, "So, how do the Kenpo principles I know work with this?".

All this thinking about a banquet has made me hungry....time to go have lunch...

Take what you want from the banquet, and come back for seconds....or thirds....or more.....

Peace--

hehehe .. I like your analogy! Although, you being a man from
Utah ... You opened yourself up for some humorous comments.

Not from me of course

:rofl:

 

[Ronin]

The Ronin is back for further debates!!!!!!!!!

 

[Goldendragon7]

for the warning! lol

 

[Rob_Broad]

I have found that with the adaptability of kenpo, and all the levels that are under the surface, that kenpo is a complete art. There si grappling if you know how to look, the material you learn in the techniques about weapons disarms can be analyzed and you can see how to use some weapons. With the stuff Doc Chap'el is doing you can see the chi as well as the joint manipulations and pressure points. It is good to explore other arts because they may teach you what you didn't see in this art in the first time around.

 

[GouRonin]

There is no COMPLETE art.

No matter what any Kenpoist tells you.

 

[Goldendragon7]

well, I can't say 'cause the KGB might take it wrong....... What a beautiful mind.......

 

[Sandor]

Gallahad searched for the Holy Grail for a long time too.. no joy for him either. It wasn't until hundreds of years later that Monty Python finally found it... lost it and then Indian Jones found it but it was to late to help his old man....

 

[Goldendragon7]

The Force is Strong with this one...........:asian:

 

[GouRonin]

It's a well rounded art. That's for sure. But not complete.

That being said I think it has a great basis for teaching. It's set up great to build upon itself to learn. It has distinct learning levels. It uses the scientific basis to expand upon knowledge. (Although I think many people carry this too far and try to sound like rocket scientists to impress when they could have said what they wanted to say in one sentence rather than 12 but again, like many things wrong with Kenpo most are the fault of the people practicing it and not the art itself)

Most every art touts itself as the complete art. I think Kenpo comes close along with a few others.

 

[Goldendragon7]

It's the best...........

Bring on your stoloschina, I'll show you....... (now you're getting me worked up to be physical with you)!!!

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by GouRonin

(Although I think many people carry this too far and try to sound like rocket scientists to impress when they could have said what they wanted to say in one sentence rather than 12 but again, like many things wrong with Kenpo most are the fault of the people practicing it and not the art itself)

Well to some of us dipshits, being told the same thing 12 times,
yet different each time, is an effective way to learn. Mongo
have thick skull. Mongo only pawn, in game of life.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Hang in there!!:asian:

 

[Roland]

Now, really, what should our definition of a 'complete art', or 'complete style' or even a 'complete system' be?
English can be so vauge & ambiguous sometimes, we might have to go to our dictionaries to really try to figure this one out.