Do you believe EPAK was finally complete?

[Doc]

The question is unanswerable--and leads to these same ratholes again and again--because it isn't a very good question. In other words, the way it's phrased, as a simple, "either/or," choice, makes it impossible to usefully discuss the matter.

In other other words, its construction as a binary opposition--a set of false alternatives, for those of you who like considering rhetorical means--guarantees that nothing is going to get said after a while: it's a dead end.

I simply don't see this as a matter of, "tradition," (dead or otherwise) vs. "innovation," (crappy or otherwise), however insistent others may be on such a construction.

More meaningful questions would include:

What are the origins of these ideas about, "tradition," and. "innovation?"
How do tradition-and-innovation function as advertising slogans in the martial arts?
To what extent has kenpo attempted to institutionalize, "innovation?" as a sort of martial arts, "permanent revolution?"
In what places, and to what purposes, do temrs such as, "tradition," and, "innovation," circulate most prominently?
How does tradition figure into innovation? How does innovation work within so-called tradition?
What is the role of the individual unconscious and its resistances to knowledge in the martial arts, and to what extent do these resistances crystallize around terms such as, "tradition," and "innovation?"
How does the figure of Mr. Parker get emplaced and circulated in contemporary discussions of martial arts?
To what extent does this sort of, "trad v. rad," discussion impose a structure of male fantasy upon the actual history of martial arts?

Finally the real question(s) unfold. To the list I would humbly add one simple inquiry.

"Why is kenpo always spoken of as some kind of single entity that is exactly the same for everyone, no matter when they studied (50's to 2004), how they studied (in person, books, commercial, garage, video, etc.) or whom they studied with (Parker or 10 times removed student after his death)?" Can you say 50 years worth of "telephone games" all running simultaneously delivering the same message at the end (now)? I find the variables so great to make a "single kenpo" discussion virtually moot.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Why is kenpo always spoken of as some kind of single entity that is exactly the same for everyone, no matter when they studied (50's to 2004), how they studied (in person, books, commercial, garage, video, etc.) or whom they studied with (Parker or 10 times removed student after his death)?" Can you say 50 years worth of "telephone games" all running simultaneously delivering the same message at the end (now)? I find the variables so great to make a "single kenpo" discussion virtually moot.

Doc: You have answered the question posed by this thread. And you have answered "No." Thank you.

 

[pete]

looks like the same "tastes great, less filling" argument all over again... so i'll just point to a prior post that does move toward finally answering the question... said the chicken to the egg...

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=215101&postcount=51

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

So, now that we are all pretty much disgusted with each other and done talking...I will take the opportunity to summarize the arguments:

Those who believe EPAK was not complete do so for one or more of the following reasons:
* Didn't have access to a top-notch EPAK teacher
* Study EPAK under a top-notch teacher who thought that Mr. Parker was going to make some changes (like a 16 tech curriculum, more knife fighting, etc.)
* Study EPAK under a top-notch teacher who wants to emphasize/develop some additional and/or different concepts, techniques, or training methods.
* Have been exposed to one or more styles that has something that they had not previously discovered in EPAK or that might actually possibly not already be in EPAK.
* They are now stick-fighters or grapplers spending all their money on UFC Pay-Per-Views and Jiu-Jitsu Instructional videos who can't clearly articulate Kenpo concepts.

Those who believe EPAK is complete do so for one or more of the following reasons:
* They have access to a top-notch EPAK teacher
* Study EPAK under a top-notch teacher who thought that Mr. Parker would never make any changes to anything ever again.
* Study EPAK under a teacher who spent a lot of time with Mr. Parker and is working valiantly to teach exactly what he was taught.
* Have not been exposed to any other styles in enough depth to discover anything that might actually possibly not already be in EPAK.
* They are now patch-wearing chest-slapping black-gi-wearing hand-over-fist-saluting "oss"-saying Kenpoists pursuing the lifelong path to Kenpo completeness.

Did I miss anything? Will you flame me for this? Will you add to or subtract from my reputation points? Or has everyone crossed their arms and turned their backs on this intruguing but ultimately unanswerable question?

Are you sure you don't write final reports for qualitative analysis/focus group studies?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Male fantasy in the martial arts? I don't know about you, but for me that brings to mind girls in Hooters outfits doing BJJ in mineral oil. You'll have to help me out, Robert. What do YOU mean by fantasy?

Dr. Dave

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Male fantasy in the martial arts? I don't know about you, but for me that brings to mind girls in Hooters outfits doing BJJ in mineral oil.

SWEET!!!! artyon:

You'll have to help me out, Robert. What do YOU mean by fantasy?

Dr. Dave

He has been muttering about this for a while now. Something about how we all want to be Rambo or something. All I know is that my MA training has served its purpose on several occasions, no fantasy necessary. I also know many others for whom this is also true. There are those who take kenpo for the workout or social interaction, but there are those who are interested in learning how to defend themselves. Apparently with good reason. In my area of the country we have had numerous cases of road rage, violent kidknappings, rape, murder, and other random craziness. There are apparently groups of teenagers who walk around movie theatre parking lots just starting fights with innocent patrons. Several people have been abducted from grocery store parking lots over the last few months. Of course then there are just the random acts of violence. Percentage wise you may never get into a fight or have to use what you know, but wouldn't it be nice to know something if you ever needed it? Kinda like all those people who go through the trouble to get their CHL or CCW and never carry, it just seems a little retarded. If you aren't going to carry why get the License or buy the gun. Same with karate, all the other stuff is cool but if you aren't learning how to defend yourself then you're really missing something.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Are you sure you don't write final reports for qualitative analysis/focus group studies?

Well, actually...I have. I am also a Six Sigma Black Belt.

 

[MJS]

Male fantasy in the martial arts? I don't know about you, but for me that brings to mind girls in Hooters outfits doing BJJ in mineral oil. You'll have to help me out, Robert. What do YOU mean by fantasy?

Dr. Dave

Yes, I agree with KY. Rob is always talking about this fixation we all seem to have with fighting. I personally dont see what the confusion is. I mean, anytime you have to defend yourself, youre gonna be fighting right? But hey, the BJJ oil wrestling sounds pretty cool!

Mike

 

[Kenpomachine]

So, now that we are all pretty much disgusted with each other and done talking...I will take the opportunity to summarize the arguments:

Those who believe EPAK was not complete do so for one or more of the following reasons:
* Didn't have access to a top-notch EPAK teacher
* Study EPAK under a top-notch teacher who thought that Mr. Parker was going to make some changes (like a 16 tech curriculum, more knife fighting, etc.)
* Study EPAK under a top-notch teacher who wants to emphasize/develop some additional and/or different concepts, techniques, or training methods.
* Have been exposed to one or more styles that has something that they had not previously discovered in EPAK or that might actually possibly not already be in EPAK.
* They are now stick-fighters or grapplers spending all their money on UFC Pay-Per-Views and Jiu-Jitsu Instructional videos who can't clearly articulate Kenpo concepts.

...

Did I miss anything? Will you flame me for this? Will you add to or subtract from my reputation points? Or has everyone crossed their arms and turned their backs on this intruguing but ultimately unanswerable question?

I consider my teachers to be top-notch, even if they're not first generation and haven't met Parker. And as far as I know, they want to develop good kenpoists, kenpoists who can react in any given circumstance, with a technique from the curriculum or with a technique created ad-hoc, kenpoists who can think by themselves and be different from one another and not clones. Kenpoists who can disect a technique and then extract what can be learn and once understood began internalizing it.

Where does that leave me?

Kenpo is about personal growing, technical and otherwise. Too many people focus on the martial and forget the art, and viceversa, and lose the balance. Too many people forget students are not clones or robots, and forget that kenpo is different for any of us.

But if I don't misunderstand you, once Ed Parker is dead, EPAK is complete, as it was the works of Ed Parker. But besides, kenpo is alive, ergo it can't be complete and it's changing everyday.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I still haven't recieved my reply about Hooters girls in mineral oil...:idunno: