Complete System????

[Turner]

All martial arts are artificial. All were created by a human being and since all human beings (excluding me) are imperfect than logic states that all martial arts are imperfect. But, like the humans, some arts are better than others.

Why anyone would want the term 'complete' attached to their art is beyond me. If it is completed no growth is allowed. I studied Hapkido for a short period of time and upon learning joint manipulation I was thrilled at being able to have new 'toys' to tear apart to see how they worked and what else I could do with them. I approached my instructor and shared some of my concepts with him and He said "We don't allow that in Hapkido because students break away and create their own arts." In my opinion that is a complete system. The words "Dead End" have appeared on their road and they've gone as far as they can. Is this a good thing? Are the martial arts something that we want to have a conclusion or a concept of completion attached to?

I don't, but that's just me...

 

[Goldendragon7]

Then it's the Best thing goin at this time,
Better than I've seen yet,
Mega flexible,
Tailored to the individual,
Most practical that I've seen,
Most Logic,
Best all round system,
Ever growing for the better,
Super system....

There that's a good start!
:asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

... we get to "Thump" too ... and play with sharp shiny objects.
:samurai:

OK, so it's "sophisticated" thumping - meaning we get to hit 'em more than once. Always an important thing to a Kenpo kinda guy.

Michael B.
:boxing:

 

[kenpo3631]

I heard Mr. Parker say that our Art is a "system" and from that system we "tailor" the art to an individuals "style".

sys·tem
Pronunciation: 'sis-t&m
Function: noun
Date: 1603

2 : an organized set of doctrines, ideas, or principles usually intended to explain the arrangement or working of a systematic whole <the Newtonian system of mechanics>

style
Pronunciation: 'stI(&)l
Function: noun

b : a distinctive manner or custom of behaving or conducting oneself <the formal style of the court> <his style is abrasive>; also : a particular mode of living <in high style> c : a particular manner or technique by which something is done, created, or performed <a unique style of horseback riding> <the classical style of dance>

If we follow the definition as written, we can clearly see that EPAK is just that, a SYSTEM. it was Mr. Parker's way of explaining the motion he termed American Kenpo. The manner in which we execute or carry out the ideas, principles, and theories is what we call by definition "STYLE". Example, I saw a tape on Mr Steven (Sanders) Muhammed, he has a very rythmic style to his movments, to me almost like a boxers'. To me the way you move, smoothe, constipated or what have you, while executing the motion is YOUR style. The system didn't change! The way each of us move is uniquely different from the next.

I heard Mr. Planas once say "The system will never change". I must say I believe that. The rules and principles don't change, they are the foundation of the art. We as Kenpoists tend to change or "break" the rules because we don't understand them therefore causing a our "stlye" to come under scrutiny when observed by the Kenpo seniors.

I have by no means mastered the rules and principles nor am I an authority, however I can say this. I have improved my affectiveness triplefold now that I better understand the principles of American Kenpo.

We should endeavor ourselves to study these rule and principles, no matter who you are or what "system" you come from, they are universal and can only enhance your knowledge:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Well stated Lance!!

:asian:

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Then it's the Best thing goin at this time,
Better than I've seen yet,
Mega flexible,
Tailored to the individual,
Most practical that I've seen,
Most Logic,
Best all round system,
Ever growing for the better,
Super system....

There that's a good start!
:asian:

Oh Golden One, You 're too nice to me, you don't have to say all those great things about me, but Thanks just the same!:rofl:

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Mega flexible

I'll give you that.

 

[Goldendragon7]

And anything else I want too!
:asian:

 

[GouRonin]

I see you forgot to put the "special" helment on today...

 

[WilliamTLear]

That's right it's a system... but incomplete? Come on!!! That's like saying the English language is not complete!

Mr. Parker created American Kenpo, and when he did it, he gave us the equivilant of alphabits of motion, words of motion, sentences of motion, and paragraphs of motion.

After you learn a language do you become capable of formulating sentences and paragraphs of your own? I should think so. Think back to when you were in grade school Gou...

You teacher undoubtedly started you off by teaching you the alphabet. Next, you were probably introduced to combining those letters into words so that you could recognize and pronounce those words when you were introduced to them. Then you were probably taught the definitions of those words so that you could inevitably comprehend what you were given to read...

Eventually, somewhere down the road, you had internalized the alphabet, mastered phonetics, memorized enough words, and learned enough grammer (the principles or rules of language), to formulate your own sentences and ideas.

The reality of applying language to any given situation doesn't entail learning one statement and using that very same statement as an answer to every question you ever encounter in life. It is the same with Kenpo, or for that matter, any martial art.

Mr. Parker gave us a language of motion... Your comprehension of it, is what makes it complete or incomplete for you!

My Opinion,
Billy Lear, 3rd Degree Brown Belt
United Kenpo Systems
www.uks-kenpo.com

:soapbox:

 

[GouRonin]

The english language IS incomplete and much like Kenpo it is changing constantly. Much like Kenpo there is always the probability for addition to it and adaptation.

However you can't have it both ways. It is either changing and adapting or not. Some continue to faithfully follow the prescribed curriculum and some are innovating it. Personally I think that both should lead you to the same outcome.

I think that over all it touches on many areas and allows the practitioner to start self-exploration in the areas it touches in even if it doesn't delve fully into said areas. Also by using the same model you can make other arts much more understandable to yourself.

I might learn one or two words in french or spanish because my own language of english has words that were derived from those languages. This doesn't make my english complete. However it makes it complete for me within my own system. If you want to look at it from within your own system then yes, Kenpo makes itself a complete system for it's practitioners. If you look at it from an outside or world view, no, it's not.

I don't think any art is complete really. Some come close. I think Kenpo has the best of a lot of things. Some of the things it's missing I think just are not compatable with what many people think Kenpo should be so they resist it. Myself, I think it's adaptable and could easily take in these things and work them into its framework.

Huk and Mike Pick added the framework for knife stuff. There was always some but they are expanding it for example. As far as I am concerned, good Kenpo is always taking in and expanding it's base.

However because Kenpo gives itself an alphabet for it's practitioners to use does not make it complete except within it's own framework.

My 2 cents.

 

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7


If you just look at the curriculum from a limited perspective..... Yes, I supposed I would develop your understanding too. If you look at What Ed Parker himself penned....... He did it for a reason.... for us to learn the other Categories as well.... Discover them if you will since he didn't have time to finish his work. He certainly knew of the importance of these categories and we discussed it on many occasions.

I'm stepping back on this thread a bit. Now I understand both views and tend to agree with both Sander and Gou. I think some people may be taking it wrong.

I originally was going to make a statement, but there is enough of that already. So, I have a question for GD7. Besides, I'm a student first and am always looking for knowledge.

Since SGM Parker did not have time to finish his work, how do you propose we are to finish it for him?

What process should we follow to expand on his teaching? (I did read your article on the web of knowledge)

SGM Parker studied other arts and broke things down logically as only he could. The system he left us showed us the way of doing this. Could we not learn, compare, and evaluate techniques from other systems and incorporate what was learned following the principles he left us?

Reason I ask you is because you had spent a lot of time with SGM and wish to see your perspective.

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Zoran SGM Parker studied other arts and broke things down logically. The system he left us showed us the way of doing this.

This is one of the greatest assets of Kenpo in my opinion.

 

[WilliamTLear]

Gou, that is a statement that I can agree with... New things are being added to the eniglish language, and because of that it is a living language. I have a tendency to think that we are, by studying Kenpo, learnig a "living art".

But, I also believe that before you change something, or tailor something, you should have a firm understanding of the original idea first. Sure kenpo is an evolutionary art, and it will evolve... but this should take place over time. Look how long it took human beings to get to where we are from the cave man days of long ago...

I AM NOT AN ADVOCATE FOR TRADITIONALIZING MR. PARKER'S ART, but I do believe in learning everything he left us before making changes. (The student should internalize the ideal before moving into the what if phase.)

Now, I have heard arguements about how Kenpo doesn't teach weapons, and that if you wanna learn knife fighting... go to the Phillipino school down the street, or if you wanna learn stick fighting... go to the Escrima school over there. Why can't we, as Kenpoists, pick up some sticks/knives and prepetuate our art?! (We must become the change that we want to see!)

Every time someone revamps the system, or replaces the techniques (because they can't make them work, or because they feel that something is missing) they are reinventing the wheel, without advancing technically.

I for one... whould like to see us, as martial artists, move away from building the stone wheel over and over again, and eventually move into an area where we are "all" riding around on "modern" all terrain tires!!!

You got me Gou,
Billy Lear, 3rd Degree Brown Belt
United Kenpo Systems
www.uks-kenpo.com

P.S. If anybody thinks that Kenpo doesn't have good knife stuff they should definatley look into some of what Mr. Pick is doing. I was subjected to a little bit of it the other day by my instructor, Wes Idol, and have to say... WOW!!! :asian:

 

[WilliamTLear]

The English language is complete as it relates to the alphabet, phonetics, and grammar, but you are right about one thing new words are added all the time.

Mr. Parker's Kenpo is complete as it relates to the basics, the techniques, and the sets, but you are right... due to the re-arrangement principle and the inclusion of a Thesis Form for Black Belts... Something new is added to Kenpo all the time. This is what makes it a living art, and is what I meant by saying that Kenpo is a complete system (although I hope it never becomes a complete art).

Your Friend Always,
Billy Lear, 3rd Degree Brown Belt
United Kenpo Systems
www.uks-kenpo.com

P.S. Is anyone out there trying to add a twenty seveth letter to the english alphabet? If so I would be interested in what it looks like, what the sound is, and what some of the new words are that contain that letter.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear

Mr. Parker's Kenpo is complete as it relates to the basics, the techniques, and the sets

To play devil's advocate here, on what do you base this statement? Is it more than Mr. Parker's statement that this is so?

 

[Klondike93]

Where did Mr. Pick get the knife stuff from? Kenpo or some other source?

I have read there are knives and clubs in kenpo but haven't seen any of it yet. The only club stuff I have learned is Escrima stuff.

GD how about a little info on the kenpo side of weapons.


:asian:

 

[WilliamTLear]

First to respond to Klondike 93...

Where did Mr. Pick get the knife stuff from? Kenpo or some other source?

Mike Pick developed alot of knife stuff "with" Mr. Parker, and from my understanding, Mr. Pick trained in Kenpo exclusively. He didn't go to any other arts and borrow (from what I've been told).

Second, responding to arnisador...

To play devil's advocate here, on what do you base this statement? Is it more than Mr. Parker's statement that this is so?

My opinion is based on my own personal expereince in the martial arts (which started well before Kenpo), and my interactions with many prominent Kenpo Instructors. You won't catch me blindly following anyone. I am one of those "Old School" kinda guys that have to hear it, see it, and feel it... to believe it.

Take Care,
Billy Lear, 3rd Degree Brown Belt
United Kenpo Systems
www.uks-kenpo.com
:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear

My opinion is based on my own personal expereince in the martial arts (which started well before Kenpo), and my interactions with many prominent Kenpo Instructors. You won't catch me blindly following anyone.

I confess, it seems to me that a good number of kenpoists have an uncritical view of Mr. Parker, as you obviously surmised from my post.

It seems to me that kenpo is as complete as most forms of karate or kung fu, but not noticeably more so. But I have no direct experience of the art.

 

[Turner]

It seems to me that kenpo is as complete as most forms of karate or kung fu, but not noticeably more so. But I have no direct experience of the art.

I disagree. I've trained in Goju-Ryu Karate, Hapkido, Aikido, Shorinji Kempo, Ninjutsu, Soo Bahk Do Tang Soo Do, Kyokushin-Kai Karate and several others; Now perhaps all of those were the famed McDojo's <Tang Soo Do definately was, but the others I seriously doubt were>, but the difference in those arts and American Kenpo was like comparing Elementary School with College...

The non-Kenpo arts I studied had a lot of the principles and concepts that Kenpo teaches, but they weren't analyzied to the same degree that Kenpo does. The non-Kenpo arts I studied was like taking a drivers-ed course where you learn how to drive the car safely from point A to point B. From what I've seen of Kenpo you not only learn how to drive from point A to point B, but you know how to build the car so that in case something breaks down between those two points you can rebuild the car to ensure that you get there.

But that's just me....