Combat between Kiai master and MMA fighter

[Steve]

No in the context of competitive strong aggressive guys who go hard contact.

There is a level you can reach by being a technician and a level you can reach by being a fighter.

There's a great point. How many actual "fighters" do we have on this board? I'd wager fewer than a handful, and certainly I wouldn't count myself in that number.

 

[drop bear]

There's a great point. How many actual "fighters" do we have on this board? I'd wager fewer than a handful, and certainly I wouldn't count myself in that number.

Fighter would be the same as "The street" I think if we put it in that context.

I got routinely smashed by guys that I was technically better than because they were just being more aggressive. It realistically took me forever to figure out what I was doing wrong in that I was technically training to counter someone who does not go at me hard. Normally this is proved false in the gym showing technique trumps aggression. But this is almost always done with a massive skill difference. And we are back to chi balls.

 

[RTKDCMB]

"And as a result you have now become worse that them. You are now a zealot, determined to prove to everyone that anything within a bulls roar of chi is nonsense. That is totally disrespectful of all who practise internal arts."

Well I was talking about krav. But anyway.

If an internal art has an effect. I assume it would be measurable. You don't need to see it on a machine you could just use cause and effect.

" Chi Balls are as much BS as the Kiai Master. Let's accept that there are practitioners who are not typical of the rest of us, who can bring anything into disrepute, and move on. Kyusho, Dim Mak, Kiko etc are all legitimate areas of practice. If they have no part of your training, fine, just spare us the constant barrage of poor videos that prove your point"

You seem to have a very them and us mentality towards martial arts. I am suggesting common elements some good some bad. It is not necessarily styles bringing other styles into disrepute.

Did you forget how to use the quote function?

 

[drop bear]

Did you forget how to use the quote function?

Sometimes the button works sometimes it just doesn't.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Sometimes the button works sometimes it just doesn't.

You can cut and paste the Quote parts in the square brackets, works just as well.

 

[Tez3]

I've yet to see anyone try to throw a chi ball in my Krav class. Anyway it would have to be a 'ruach' ball to fit in with Krav.

The measure of Chi or Ki is in the effectiveness of the technique.

It would be Matzo balls they would throw with it being an Israeli/Jewish art, followed by hot chicken soup. We tend to be a practical lot rather than wait for something considered 'divine'.

 

[K-man]

It would be Matzo balls they would throw with it being an Israeli/Jewish art, followed by hot chicken soup. We tend to be a practical lot rather than wait for something considered 'divine'.

I bow to your better understanding of the Jewish language. It was a pure guess on my part, but then again, Krav does have a certain divine feel to it.

 

[Tez3]

I bow to your better understanding of the Jewish language. It was a pure guess on my part, but then again, Krav does have a certain divine feel to it.

Ah that's because in actual fact Krav is the invention of Jewish mothers who want their daughters to marry doctors, it's not to defend themselves but to grab and hold a doctor against other Jewish girls.

 

[K-man]

At a level of demonstration this is about as realistic as chi balls. The guy on top has to comply for it to work.

Now lets support this with the celestial teacup. And say in the street his eyes will pop out of his head and his face will explode from the kicks.

And we have a self defence method we can never test.

But also we are training to let go if we have top control and get eyegouges.

So at some stage you have to break that cycle. Or chi balls will start working.

" I have no idea how you link this video to a thread on the Kiai Master BS video. However, I am a simple man. Perhaps you could tell me what is wrong with the technique as shown. In turn I will take it to my guys tonight and try it first hand."

Ok. Instead of relying on eyegouges and kicks that have to rely on the attacker compliantly letting go. You could use one of a thousand different side control escapes the work regardless of how much that guy on top is trying to hold you down.

From those thousand escapes pick one that is high percentage but still allows you the opportunity to eye gouge and kick if you really want to.

From the top don't let go and then flop on your back and get kicked to death do something about the eye gouge and then take advantage of that straight arm that the guy on the bottom is giving you.
(personally I would like to wrap the Thing and elbow the guys face off)

Then you will find the guy on the bottom. May have to keep his arm bent with the eyegouge and at the same time go for a side control escape.

Basically changing the whole dynamics of that thread.

When you try that out tonight have the guy on top knee on belly. Then when you eyegouge him he can just pop straight up and punch you in the face untill you let him choke you again.

Well we tried it tonight and it worked for everyone. Not only that, I had the guys do it from the knee on chest as well. One if the guys I tried it on was so big I couldn't even reach his neck. By positioning my body I was still able to do the technique. A number of the other guys I couldn't reach their eyes. Points on the neck worked just as well.

In consideration of your comments, we didn't flop back but moved into side control or armbar.

So for Krav where we are not taking on trained fighters the technique worked beautifully.

 

[K-man]

Ah that's because in actual fact Krav is the invention of Jewish mothers who want their daughters to marry doctors, it's not to defend themselves but to grab and hold a doctor against other Jewish girls.

So does the fact that I am teaching it mean that you are calling me an old woman?

 

[Tez3]

So does the fact that I am teaching it mean that you are calling me an old woman?

Not at all, you are however a pawn of the Jewish mothers' mafia!

 

[K-man]

Not at all, you are however a pawn of the Jewish mothers' mafia!

Many years ago I was going out with a lovely Jewish girl. I had to drop her off around the corner from her home because her parents wouldn't let her go out with non-Jewish boys. Sadly, the Jewish mafia caught me out and that was the end of the relationship.

 

[Tez3]

Many years ago I was going out with a lovely Jewish girl. I had to drop her off around the corner from her home because her parents wouldn't let her go out with non-Jewish boys. Sadly, the Jewish mafia caught me out and that was the end of the relationship.

Sadly that's what happens sometimes, it's a shame but I can see both sides of the situation.

 

[Instructor]

Back to OP
The other day I was teaching my students and one student applied a lock to the other. The other student tapped and went down well in advance of the locks completion. When we talked about it he said he knew that the lock would hurt and bring him down so he anticipated it and tapped and dropped before the pain happened.
I mentioned this situation that can develop where the students start doing that sort of thing then the teacher begins to believe he's doing the actual locks when he isn't and eventually he's just waving his arms around in the air and people are falling down in a kind of mass psychosis. All the students nodded and vowed not to tap or head for the deck till Tori had earned it.
Hapkido is pain, if people aren't feeling pain in class, then they aren't doing Hapkido.

 

[K-man]

Back to OP
The other day I was teaching my students and one student applied a lock to the other. The other student tapped and went down well in advance of the locks completion. When we talked about it he said he knew that the lock would hurt and bring him down so he anticipated it and tapped and dropped before the pain happened.
I mentioned this situation that can develop where the students start doing that sort of thing then the teacher begins to believe he's doing the actual locks when he isn't and eventually he's just waving his arms around in the air and people are falling down in a kind of mass psychosis. All the students nodded and vowed not to tap or head for the deck till Tori had earned it.
Hapkido is pain, if people aren't feeling pain in class, then they aren't doing Hapkido.

Of course there is a downside to all training working that way. As with Aikido, if you totally resist all the time and don't learn to receive, then you don't learn the reversals. Sometimes you do need to move ahead of the pain. I'm not saying don't resist, just don't always resist.

 

[drop bear]

Back to OP
The other day I was teaching my students and one student applied a lock to the other. The other student tapped and went down well in advance of the locks completion. When we talked about it he said he knew that the lock would hurt and bring him down so he anticipated it and tapped and dropped before the pain happened.
I mentioned this situation that can develop where the students start doing that sort of thing then the teacher begins to believe he's doing the actual locks when he isn't and eventually he's just waving his arms around in the air and people are falling down in a kind of mass psychosis. All the students nodded and vowed not to tap or head for the deck till Tori had earned it.
Hapkido is pain, if people aren't feeling pain in class, then they aren't doing Hapkido.

I have a guy you just cant guillotine choke in sparring. He is just a nut and refuses to tap.
Trying it myself if it is not done super right it hurts but rarely stops you. And if you can ride it out you wind up in a pretty good position.

What it does is it makes that choke low percentage. But it is a bit about the mentality of the thing. If you think you are going to die you will tap. If you think you wont you fight through.

 

[Hanzou]

I have a guy you just cant guillotine choke in sparring. He is just a nut and refuses to tap.
Trying it myself if it is not done super right it hurts but rarely stops you. And if you can ride it out you wind up in a pretty good position.

What it does is it makes that choke low percentage. But it is a bit about the mentality of the thing. If you think you are going to die you will tap. If you think you wont you fight through.

If the choke is applied properly, it doesn't matter if the other person is resisting it or not, eventually the lack of oxygen to the brain will cause the person getting choked to go limp.

Personally, I'll tap if I feel the person has the choke, and its on for about 1-2 seconds. If a person is in the position to properly apply a choke on you, you messed up a long time ago. Just tap and reset. Extended resistance to choking is very dangerous, and can lead to some serious neck/throat injuries.

 

[drop bear]

If the choke is applied properly, it doesn't matter if the other person is resisting it or not, eventually the lack of oxygen to the brain will cause the person getting choked to go limp.

Personally, I'll tap if I feel the person has the choke, and its on for about 1-2 seconds. If a person is in the position to properly apply a choke on you, you messed up a long time ago. Just tap and reset. Extended resistance to choking is very dangerous, and can lead to some serious neck/throat injuries.

Have you tried to actively defend it? Rolling so the arm is high. Hand fighting posturing so you get some breathing room?

There arms could give up before you do.

 

[Hanzou]

Have you tried to actively defend it? Rolling so the arm is high. Hand fighting posturing so you get some breathing room?

There arms could give up before you do.

That really depends on the choke you're talking about. Obviously we're taught how to counter chokes, and how to counter the counters of chokes. My point was that a choke properly applied is highly dangerous to fight against, especially if you're just training.

Just tap out.

 

[wushu_fighter]

Of course there is a downside to all training working that way. As with Aikido, if you totally resist all the time and don't learn to receive, then you don't learn the reversals. Sometimes you do need to move ahead of the pain. I'm not saying don't resist, just don't always resist.

I totally agree with this idea. During the trainning, in my opinion, it is not possible to resist all the times, otherwise, it will mean to submit our body to a great stress, what would inevitably produce an injure in our tissues or body structures.