Clinching

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thaiboxer

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Originally posted by KumaSan



Actually, yes there is. It's been a long day at work and I can't track down the websites (it's waaaaay past nap time), but there is definitely a variation of Muay Thai that is not sport-oriented. It's used by the Thai military. I've never seen them use it in person, but I have met several member of the Thai special forces during Cobra Gold exercises and they seemed quite capable. Some of these military types dislike the fact that the only thing the world knows of their art is the sport style. This all happened long before I began my own journey in the arts, so I didn't pump these guys for information like I should have. :mad:

yep your right here buddy, thais are annoyed that its watered down in the ring these days
 
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thaiboxer

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Originally posted by KENPO_CORY



Well, I'd assume that in Thai boxing you guys would use this theory a lot. I thought Thai boxing used a lot of knees and elbows. These play upon obscure zones a lot (zones where your vision is limited like out of the corners of your eyes, below the chin line while looking forward, etc.) I don't know a lot about Thai style though. Correct me if I'm wrong.

yep we do, but hey the other guy can too.
 

D.Cobb

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Thaiboxer, I get the impression that Kirk may be a little confused by your description, and think you were talking about a headlock, where as I get the impression you were talking about the standard clinch. If this is so, then the first answer would be, that any kenpoist worth his salt wouldn't allow his opponent that much control. The second answer would be that if you had hold of the kenpoists neck, with both hands then regardless of what you did the kenpoist would attack your legs with his, and attack your body with his hands. Actually at that range it would have to be elbows.

You asked how he would avoid the clinch, the answer would not be at the greater range as earlier suggested, but by moving to the outside of your weapons, and by maintaining positional checks to the key points, ie. your knees/legs, and your closest arm/elbow, whilst using the appropriate weapons to the most logical targets.

It is hard to explain here and can sound quite big headed, but if you were to see it close up or even experience it in a training situation you would at least understand what I'm trying to say.
One the first things a student learns after basic kick /punch, is the use of checks, in self defense situations. The more experienced the practitioner, the better the checks. I'm sure that Muay Thai has similar things, but with a different name. If you were to use that name instead of "checks", then you'd probably agree with what we have said.

--Dave


:asian:
 

KumaSan

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Clinching is when people get up close and personal, usually involving some sort of standing grappling. Whenever you see two boxers get in close, and they're all tied up, that's the clinch. In Muay Thai, we like to put both hands behind our opponent's head, with your forearms along the sides of their neck. You then use your leverage to pull their head in close and downward, so their neck is bent and they can see the floor (not comfortable). Start kneeing the holy heck out of their midsection/thighs/head until they pass out or get out. It's quite fun, actually to play with. It looks like a couple of guys just grabbing and going crazy, but there's actually a lot of technique involved, more a science than an art.
 

kenpo_cory

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thaiboxer,

There's not much you can do when someone has the back of your head and your bent over with them throwing knees at you. One idea is to try and grab the attackers head as well when the clinch is on to nullify their height as well. Not really much good after they already have you but if you see that coming you can cancel it. Just an idea.
 

KumaSan

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Well, that wasn't directed at me, but since thaiboxer's not the only one here who has experience with a Muay Thai clinch, I'll go ahead and respond.

There's not much you can do when someone has the back of your head and your bent over with them throwing knees at you.

That's kind of the idea on the offense side. Keep in mind that I was describing the 'ideal' position from the attacker's perspective. Of course it rarely goes down like that, but when it does, look out.

This is one of those situations where the best defense is not to be there in the first place, but that's not always possible. Failing that, the most basic (read: reliable) defense once in this position is to use one hand to check the opponent's hips (we'll say left) to keep the knees away, use the other hand to push up on the other guy's jaw. This creates enough space to lift your head up and move your left hand up and around the back of his head. Now snake your right hand back under his arm and around the other side of his head, and the shoe is on the other foot now. Again, it's never this pretty against someone who has a clue, but you can make it work. Reality usually ends up in a high-low position, both guys right arms up around the other guys head, left hand outside checking the hip. Lots of little tricks and things from here. But that's a whole other story...

On a side note, in January I watched a match between 2 lightweights, one who studied Muay Thai, the other a TKD stylist who wanted to try Thai rules. The match ended early in the first round when the MT kid grabbed the TKD guy by the back of the head and fed about 10 thrusting knees into his gut. The poor TKD guy had never really worked the clinch and didn't have a clue how to get out. After thrust knee #10 or 11, he just kind of folded up and fell on the canvas. A 10 count later they were helping him stand up and hobble back to his corner. This isn't TKD bashing, and it's not MT chest-beating. I gave the guy a lot of respect for competing in a bout with unfamiliar rules, but it just goes to show that unless you train the clinch, you will probably have a hard time getting out of it.
 

kenpo_cory

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Originally posted by KumaSan


This is one of those situations where the best defense is not to be there in the first place, but that's not always possible. Failing that, the most basic (read: reliable) defense once in this position is to use one hand to check the opponent's hips (we'll say left) to keep the knees away, use the other hand to push up on the other guy's jaw. This creates enough space to lift your head up and move your left hand up and around the back of his head. Now snake your right hand back under his arm and around the other side of his head, and the shoe is on the other foot now. Again, it's never this pretty against someone who has a clue, but you can make it work. Reality usually ends up in a high-low position, both guys right arms up around the other guys head, left hand outside checking the hip. Lots of little tricks and things from here. But that's a whole other story...[/B]

Hey! thanks for the ideas, great stuff!
 
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thaiboxer

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Originally posted by D.Cobb

"Thaiboxer, I get the impression that Kirk may be a little confused by your description, and think you were talking about a headlock, where as I get the impression you were talking about the standard clinch. If this is so, then the first answer would be, that any kenpoist worth his salt wouldn't allow his opponent that much control. The second answer would be that if you had hold of the kenpoists neck, with both hands then regardless of what you did the kenpoist would attack your legs with his, and attack your body with his hands. Actually at that range it would have to be elbows."

ok then, thanks for that.

"You asked how he would avoid the clinch, the answer would not be at the greater range as earlier suggested, but by moving to the outside of your weapons, and by maintaining positional checks to the key points, ie. your knees/legs, and your closest arm/elbow, whilst using the appropriate weapons to the most logical targets."

so positional checks are quite simply, the ability to realize that a certain technique can be used when an opening is seen or a defensive/attack has to be made?

"It is hard to explain here and can sound quite big headed, but if you were to see it close up or even experience it in a training situation you would at least understand what I'm trying to say.
One the first things a student learns after basic kick /punch, is the use of checks, in self defense situations. The more experienced the practitioner, the better the checks. I'm sure that Muay Thai has similar things, but with a different name. If you were to use that name instead of "checks", then you'd probably agree with what we have said."

nah its fighting instinct really, its up to the individual to realize when to use a combination or a certain attack or defence when sparring or fighting.
thanks dave for the explanations, appreciate your input.
 

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