Clinching

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thaiboxer

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I'd like to hear how you other martial arts clinch. Perhaps your lead up work, or a combination you would use to get into the clinch, or a position your opponent might be in and you take advantage of. Also the mechanics of your clinch, how you go about things, or manoeuvre your opponent when in the clinch to perform another attack.
thanks
 
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GouRonin

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Systema has some excellent clinching techniques for boxing. But so does JKD to some extent.:D
 

kenpo_cory

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I know in American kenpo we use a principle called taking the other persons space. In other words where ever you are standing when I finish my series of moves thats where I want to be. Now, this is not true in ALL instances. Another theory in kenpo is the closer to the person you are when striking, the slower their reaction time to defend themselves against your strikes will be. This also gives you a real advantage in striking their obscure zones. We also do a lot of stand up grappling. To get in this close you can do any number of things such as striking your way in using forward momentum, and being aggressive, (you can move forward a lot faster than your opponent can move backwards) you can feint your way in, or if your good enough when you spot an opening, take it. These are just a few of the theories I have been taught or have picked up on, I'm sure there's a lot more. Sorry about the long-winded babbling, sometimes I get carried away. :D
 
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thaiboxer

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Originally posted by GouRonin

Systema has some excellent clinching techniques for boxing. But so does JKD to some extent.:D

please tell
 
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thaiboxer

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Originally posted by KENPO_CORY

"I know in American kenpo we use a principle called taking the other persons space. In other words where ever you are standing when I finish my series of moves thats where I want to be."

This is interesting, i personally throw a combination and if it gets them in a certain position then ill throw another suitable to what there current position is.

"Now, this is not true in ALL instances. Another theory in kenpo is the closer to the person you are when striking, the slower their reaction time to defend themselves against your strikes will be. This also gives you a real advantage in striking their obscure zones."

geez i wouldnt take this as gospel. what about a good boxer who can duck and weave or take a hit and counter punch real quick?

"We also do a lot of stand up grappling. To get in this close you can do any number of things such as striking your way in using forward momentum, and being aggressive, (you can move forward a lot faster than your opponent can move backwards) you can feint your way in, or if your good enough when you spot an opening, take it. These are just a few of the theories I have been taught or have picked up on, I'm sure there's a lot more. Sorry about the long-winded babbling, sometimes I get carried away. :D "

yeah how does your standup grappling work? and what strikes do you use when in your grapple?
i guess you can move faster forward than backwards, just depends on individual i guess.
yeah in MT i tend to throw a jab/cross after they are disoriented slightly, i grab behind base of head with right hand (cause its out there, sorry im orthodox stance - ie left hand/leg lead) then place left hand over right (inside clinch grip) and proceed to throw thrusting knees (this involves a skip between - knees are brought up and pushed forward also with a slight hip twist and pivot on support leg, and tend to slot into opponents body)
there arent too many openings when you know your opponent can throw big punches and elbows and knees, you have to soften them up where i come from.
your right tell me a bit more mechanics of your clinch, id appreciate it, thanks.
 

D.Cobb

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At the Ryukyu Kempo school where I train, we clinch in a similar fashion to what I have seen of Muay Thai. The only real difference being that we will usually set ourselves up so that we can throw both hands at the same time to pressure points on both sides of the head/forehead area. We follow through so that our hands are behind the head, and snap them back into the clinch, striking the GB20 points at the base of the skull, and smashing his face into our shoulder/collar bone area. Then we use our knees, usually straight up into the Liver plexus areas on the floating ribs.
--Dave:asian:
 

Cthulhu

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In Okinawa-te, our clinch depended on the particulars of the situation. We never really went for any set position. The goal was to learn how to gain control in a clinch regardless of the situation. So, you basically had to know how to control a person from most positions. Not easy to do and I am by no means claiming any proficiency in it. We could clinch by grabbing behind the oppenents head, under their arms, grabbing the arms directly, etc...depends on what was happening in the fight at that given moment.

For me, I'd like to control the range so as not to have to worry about ending up in a clinch situation. I know, not always possible, but a fella can dream, can't he? :)

I've only experienced a little dumog since taking up the FMA, so I can't make any comments on that.

Cthulhu
 

D.Cobb

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Originally posted by thaiboxer geez i wouldnt take this as gospel. what about a good boxer who can duck and weave or take a hit and counter punch real quick?[/B]


That's why American Kenpo people use what they call, positional checks. According to Encyclopedia of Kenpo, this is "The formation of various defensive postures that automatically check incoming action. The structured positions themselves act as checks without any effort on your part."

This is accentuated by the use of the "Changing of the Guard" concept. Where by they use, "the continuous changing of hands or feet during combat to insure constant protection against intentional as well as unintentional attacks. The continuous relocation of body parts also helps in counter balancing your movements."

Can you guess what style I used to train in?

--Dave

:asian:
 
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thaiboxer

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Originally posted by D.Cobb




"That's why American Kenpo people use what they call, positional checks. According to Encyclopedia of Kenpo, this is "The formation of various defensive postures that automatically check incoming action. The structured positions themselves act as checks without any effort on your part."

from my limited fighting experience, one doesnt usually have time to worry about forming complex defensive postures. this is how i see it, you either block the attack full on, or you tend to slip it and counter attack, or take the blow because you didnt get into a position to do either of the afore mentioned. Please explain how your defensive postures work? maybe im jumping the gun here.

"This is accentuated by the use of the "Changing of the Guard" concept. Where by they use, "the continuous changing of hands or feet during combat to insure constant protection against intentional as well as unintentional attacks. The continuous relocation of body parts also helps in counter balancing your movements."

id like to hear some more re this changing of the hands/feet thing.

"Can you guess what style I used to train in?"

ahhhhhh american kempo?????
 
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thaiboxer

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Originally posted by Cthulhu

"In Okinawa-te, our clinch depended on the particulars of the situation. We never really went for any set position. The goal was to learn how to gain control in a clinch regardless of the situation. So, you basically had to know how to control a person from most positions. "

yeah we do too basically cthulhu.

For me, I'd like to control the range so as not to have to worry about ending up in a clinch situation. I know, not always possible, but a fella can dream, can't he? :)

yeah considering Muay thai doesnt have any ground fighting capabilities, getting into a clinch against a good ground fighter may be more trouble than its worth (well this is what ive thought of) not unless you get a few good straight thrusting knees in.

thanks mate
 

Cthulhu

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That's one thing I don't like about all this emphasis placed on grappling in recent years: no one has adequately demonstrated a way around your opponent's buddy jumping in either at the clinch or when you and the opponent are rolling on the ground.

Back when I was a wee lad, I got in a fight and had my opponent on the ground, trying to make him eat my tennis shoe (don't ask, I don't have an answer). Anway, his buddy proceeded to whack me on the back with his trumpet case. Lucky for me, he was particularly weak, so I barely felt the blows. However, it does effectively demonstrate my point.

Having said this, I am in no way discouraging people from training in groundwork. I like to train in it 'just in case'. Just in case I get taken down, I want to be able to get my way out of the situation so I can get back up and have better control of the situation. Despite what many people may tell you, grappling is not the be-all-end-all of fighting. If my buddies and I were ever dumb enough to end up in a fight, and one of my buddies gets taken to the ground, you bet yer booty I'm gonna start doing the Mexican hat dance on the other fella's head.

Or I could just stay smart and not get into any fights in the first place. Too easy to get lead poisoning these days. :)

Cthulhu
 
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Kirk

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Originaly Posted By Thai Boxer
For me, I'd like to control the range so as not to have to worry about ending up in a clinch situation.

I'm not near authorative on my style, so maybe a higher ranking
kenpoist can give credence to, or take away from this. We
control a person's heighth and width zones, which will prevent
a clinch of any control. So far, my teachings have been that we
if we're on "the inside" (face to face) we get in close, and fire
with a big arsenal of strikes. I've heard it refered to as a
"hornet's nest". If you get into the hornet's nest of a kenpoist,
that's where you're most vulnerable.

I think for muay thai, (again, I'm talking from a point of view
from little exposure) the area one would be most vulnerable
would be at a further range to avoid the ultra heavy kicks
of a muay thai practitioner.
 
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thaiboxer

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by the way that piece you quoted from my post is from Cthulhu originally.

"We control a person's heighth and width zones, which will prevent a clinch of any control."

how do you go about this kirk?

"So far, my teachings have been that we
if we're on "the inside" (face to face) we get in close, and fire
with a big arsenal of strikes."

how could you do this when someone has a firm grip around your head and manipulating you into knee strikes of all kinds face to face up close both bodies together as in MT?

" I've heard it refered to as a
"hornet's nest". If you get into the hornet's nest of a kenpoist,
that's where you're most vulnerable."

maybe for some.

"I think for muay thai, (again, I'm talking from a point of view
from little exposure) the area one would be most vulnerable
would be at a further range to avoid the ultra heavy kicks
of a muay thai practitioner."

this would be true of a purely kicking art like TKD more like it, its the other way round if at all, there are heaps we can do from any range, long (kicking/flying knees), medium(all kicks/spinning back fists/boxing punching/thrusting/flying knees) or short (boxing punching/kicking/elbowing/kneeing/headbutt), but especially short, thats what really seperates us from the rest a strong stand up grappling system.(some would beg to differ im sure - no disrespect to others meant here - so please dont take this personally - or anything i say - i am biased for sure)
all different types of elbows, knees and of course the stand up grappling which can be devastating to an opponent with knee strikes. Were not limited anywhere really.
 
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thaiboxer

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That's one thing I don't like about all this emphasis placed on grappling in recent years: no one has adequately demonstrated a way around your opponent's buddy jumping in either at the clinch or when you and the opponent are rolling on the ground.

I agree and im of your thinking, im going to BJJ soon to do some ground work, just in case basically i get taken down (you never know), i hate reolling around, especially on the dirty/smelly/alcohol/urine infested floors of pubs. couldnt think of anything worse.

"If my buddies and I were ever dumb enough to end up in a fight, and one of my buddies gets taken to the ground, you bet yer booty I'm gonna start doing the Mexican hat dance on the other fella's head."

funny stuff

"Or I could just stay smart and not get into any fights in the first place. Too easy to get lead poisoning these days. :)"

thats true too, probably the best idea.
 
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Kirk

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Quote:
"We control a person's heighth and width zones, which will prevent a clinch of any control."

how do you go about this kirk?


REPLY:
By attacking the opponent's centerline. Groin, sternum, thigh,
knee strikes will check their heighth. When any of these are
struck, the head comes down.

-------------------

Quote:
"So far, my teachings have been that we
if we're on "the inside" (face to face) we get in close, and fire
with a big arsenal of strikes."

how could you do this when someone has a firm grip around your head and manipulating you into knee strikes of all kinds face to face up close both bodies together as in MT?

REPLY:
Any experienced kenpoist is welcome to come in here .. I hate
sounding like I'm some kind of authority, especially in the company
of the kenpoists that are members here.
We're taught strong defenses against headlocks, and so far, in
the limited techniques I've been taught, all of the headlock
defenses start with checking the leg, to prevent a knee strike,
then attacking various places. My current favorite is "Grip Of
Death" which has a finish of hitting the bladder and kidney at
the same time, which could potentially blow either organ, or
any "tubing" in between. I think for the type of hold you're
talking about, the technique "Locking Horns" would be more
appropriate, which is check the leg, groin shot, elbow to the
jaw as you're standing up, and out of the hold. Then the
attacker best be wearing some eye protection, or else I'm
walking away with one in each hand.


-------------------

Quote:
" I've heard it refered to as a
"hornet's nest". If you get into the hornet's nest of a kenpoist,
that's where you're most vulnerable."

maybe for some.


REPLY

I must admit, I'm a bit put off by this response. It's coming across
to me that you have a pretty big ego. If that's not the case, then
I don't understand why on earth you'd want to comment in this
way. Would you mind explaining? Kenpo is held in a very high
regard in the martial arts community as a HIGHLY effective street
defensive art, do you disagree? Possibly you feel that muay
thai is more effective in the street? Have you done any research
concerning this matter, and what high ranking people in various
arts feel about it?


-------------------

QUESTIONS:
Are eye gouges, chokes, bites, etc allowed in
muay thai?

I've already admitted not knowing much about your art, is there a seperate style of study that's not inside a ring, without gloves on?
 

kenpo_cory

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Originally posted by thaiboxer

Originally posted by KENPO_CORY

Another theory in kenpo is the closer to the person you are when striking, the slower their reaction time to defend themselves against your strikes will be. This also gives you a real advantage in striking their obscure zones."

geez i wouldnt take this as gospel. what about a good boxer who can duck and weave or take a hit and counter punch real quick?

Well, I'd assume that in Thai boxing you guys would use this theory a lot. I thought Thai boxing used a lot of knees and elbows. These play upon obscure zones a lot (zones where your vision is limited like out of the corners of your eyes, below the chin line while looking forward, etc.) I don't know a lot about Thai style though. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 

KumaSan

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Originally posted by Kirk

Quote:
I've already admitted not knowing much about your art, is there a seperate style of study that's not inside a ring, without gloves on?

Actually, yes there is. It's been a long day at work and I can't track down the websites (it's waaaaay past nap time), but there is definitely a variation of Muay Thai that is not sport-oriented. It's used by the Thai military. I've never seen them use it in person, but I have met several member of the Thai special forces during Cobra Gold exercises and they seemed quite capable. Some of these military types dislike the fact that the only thing the world knows of their art is the sport style. This all happened long before I began my own journey in the arts, so I didn't pump these guys for information like I should have. :mad:
 
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thaiboxer

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"By attacking the opponent's centerline. Groin, sternum, thigh,
knee strikes will check their heighth. When any of these are
struck, the head comes down. "

yep fair enough, thats says it in plain english now, without all the hoopla. yep we pull heads into knees from various angles.

"Any experienced kenpoist is welcome to come in here .. I hate
sounding like I'm some kind of authority, especially in the company
of the kenpoists that are members here.
We're taught strong defenses against headlocks, and so far, in
the limited techniques I've been taught, all of the headlock
defenses start with checking the leg, to prevent a knee strike,
then attacking various places. My current favorite is "Grip Of
Death" which has a finish of hitting the bladder and kidney at
the same time, which could potentially blow either organ, or
any "tubing" in between. I think for the type of hold you're
talking about, the technique "Locking Horns" would be more
appropriate, which is check the leg, groin shot, elbow to the
jaw as you're standing up, and out of the hold. Then the
attacker best be wearing some eye protection, or else I'm
walking away with one in each hand."

cool, but still hard to pull off when someone is pushed right up against your body pulling you around and kneeing you continuously.

"I must admit, I'm a bit put off by this response. It's coming across
to me that you have a pretty big ego. If that's not the case, then
I don't understand why on earth you'd want to comment in this
way. Would you mind explaining?

well no. just dont assume that all people are going to be vulnerable to a kenpoist up close, there are extremely talented fighters out there. most of all the kung fu guys who you borrow your techniques from. never mind an art that does things completely different.

"Kenpo is held in a very high regard in the martial arts community as a HIGHLY effective street defensive art, do you disagree? Possibly you feel that muay thai is more effective in the street? Have you done any research concerning this matter, and what high ranking people in various arts feel about it? "

I generally dont really care what art people do, and im not going to make comparisons at all with you im sorry, im on this forum to learn stuff from other nice martial arts folk who are willing to answer my questions, and i respect that, and im not going to cause trauma here. So im not going to answer your first 2 questions, because that is not why we are here.

Well look i know kenpo karate (although a kung fu offshoot) has 5 component aspects (animals) that are basically pulled together as one fighting system, the sixth. Apart from that, dont take this personally i dont have the patience to wait around years to be able to fight effectively.
I really already have done my research, i do respect other martial artists, and the effort they put into learning what they do, and how good they become at performing their kata's and movements, but im not patient and that is whyt ive chosen what i have. I also care little for the so called spiritual aspect of the martial arts. Most karate/TKD etc exponents i know anyway misuse their so called martial arts skills and threaten people in some form or another, all except the guys in my class who dont have any rules regarding having respect for other people etc, funny that. Probably because they know they can fight, they dont have to prove anything.
Well quite frankly,regarding high ranking martial artists (most of them are crap, sorry to say, minus very few). Im skeptical about what most of them have to say, because they are just money makers the guys careering around crapping on at seminars generally.

"Are eye gouges, chokes, bites, etc allowed in
muay thai? "

chokes yes, eyegouging (there is outside the ring), bites? youd bite someone with all the blood related diseases around these days, its your call. no biting.

I've already admitted not knowing much about your art, is there a seperate style of study that's not inside a ring, without gloves on?

yeah no thats ok. well this is a hard one really. thats why i started the "martial sport or martial art" thread. We at muay thai, well where i come from anyway, learn both ways. We learn what is required in the ring and what we dont have to obide by on the street. for example our leg kick (in the ring - not allowed to be below or on the knee joint, on the street - anywhere we want). So really we are not purely a sport so to speak. I guess the martial sport term explains it, but hardly a soft art, extremely physical and tough as you might well know.
Id say its the most effective for sure due to its simplicity really, and no bull crap kind of nature. i guess thats why i like it.
 

Cthulhu

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Another angle to work is that whether a system is martial art or martial art all depends on how you train it.

Muay Thai, for instance. If you train in the system purely under ring rules, then you're training a martial sport. If you train differently: kicks below the knee, kicks to the groin, eye jabs, elbow wrenches, etc., then you're practicing Muay Thai as martial art. Of course, you can also do both at the same time.

It all comes down to the individual practitioner. It's not the category of the system that makes it effective, it's how the individual interprets his/her system.

I don't remember the exact wording of the quote, but Bruce Lee said, "Man, the living creature, the creating individual is always more important than any establised style or system".

Cthulhu
 
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