Well.... I just realized I read crookedly across the chart, and dropped 10 years of training out of the math. (It breaks down to 3 years up until 6th, then 10 years in grade, for a total MINIMUM of 35 years {3+3+3+3+3+10+10}.) But the argument still holds. Why couldn't someone in their 40s or early 50s do a physical test?
Chuck Norris and TKD
- Thread starter Brad Dunne
- Start date
Miles
Senior Master
Kukkiwon has published promotion regulations and in order to test for 8th dan, one must have been a 7th dan for 8 years and be at least 44 years old.
There is a physical test. As mentioned by Kwanjang, GM Edward Sell tested in Korea for his 9th dan. I used to regularly get the Kukkiwon newsletter which showed how many people attempted, passed and FAILED high dan tests (i.e. 6th-9th dan) at Kukkiwon.
Now, does this mean GM Norris tested at Kukkiwon? I don't know.
There is a physical test. As mentioned by Kwanjang, GM Edward Sell tested in Korea for his 9th dan. I used to regularly get the Kukkiwon newsletter which showed how many people attempted, passed and FAILED high dan tests (i.e. 6th-9th dan) at Kukkiwon.
Now, does this mean GM Norris tested at Kukkiwon? I don't know.
Laurentkd
Master Black Belt
Is there still a Kukkiwon newsletter?
Miles
Senior Master
There is an online newsletter which can be found on the Kukkiwon website.
The newsletter the Kukkiwon used to mail out was 1/2 English, 1/2 Korean. After I posted the above message, I found the newsletter mentioning the 30th anniversary celebration and it had 6th dan passage rate for the year as 100 out 149 I believe (so about 67% passed...i.e. 33% failed).
Stating that ALL 8th Dan testing is honorary because of your notions of what makes you eligible for 8th Dan testing is mighty presumptous.
I was present at the testing of a 6th dan senior instructor testing for 7th Dan. Not in the room mind you, but about 30 feet away next door. He was recommended to test because of his contributions to our organization and Tae Kwon Do, but his testing was primarily physical. Nothing honorable about it. I watched him get ready, and he was absolutely nervous. Would he have been nervous for an honorary 8th Dan? I think not.
I guess if I spent 4-5 years studying 8 or 9 different styles that might add up to 25 years. I've been involved in one style for 25 years. Does that count?
I was present at the testing of a 6th dan senior instructor testing for 7th Dan. Not in the room mind you, but about 30 feet away next door. He was recommended to test because of his contributions to our organization and Tae Kwon Do, but his testing was primarily physical. Nothing honorable about it. I watched him get ready, and he was absolutely nervous. Would he have been nervous for an honorary 8th Dan? I think not.
I guess if I spent 4-5 years studying 8 or 9 different styles that might add up to 25 years. I've been involved in one style for 25 years. Does that count?
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
sure it does, it qualifies you to talk about your one art, since thats the only thing you know.
in my case it isnt. Yes, your knowledge of KKW TKD is much, much deeper than mine, but I would say that my knowledge of arts "overall" is deeper than yours.
thats just opinion, and i might very well be wrong.
I say 8th degrees are honorary, because in general, across the spectrum of martial arts as a whole, it isnt based on physical skill, or developement. Even if there is a physical test, the promotion wont be based on "they are getting better" like 1st or 2nd. It is based on how many BB's they produce.
And let me say this again.
I dont give a rats rump what the KKW does. It can go away for all I care, and I would be just as happy
All i can say about that if they have a phsical test for 9th degree friggin BB? well at least then they can justify what they charge........................
in my case it isnt. Yes, your knowledge of KKW TKD is much, much deeper than mine, but I would say that my knowledge of arts "overall" is deeper than yours.
thats just opinion, and i might very well be wrong.
I say 8th degrees are honorary, because in general, across the spectrum of martial arts as a whole, it isnt based on physical skill, or developement. Even if there is a physical test, the promotion wont be based on "they are getting better" like 1st or 2nd. It is based on how many BB's they produce.
And let me say this again.
I dont give a rats rump what the KKW does. It can go away for all I care, and I would be just as happy
All i can say about that if they have a phsical test for 9th degree friggin BB? well at least then they can justify what they charge........................
Since most of this discussion has been around KKW, per KKW rules, testing for 8th Dan means you must have been 7th Dan for 8 years and must be a minimum of 44 years old.
Basically, KKW has no published standard for the time or age it should take to reach 1st poom or dan. I think though that if 12 is a good age to start TKD and it takes, on average 3 years to reach 1st dan in this scenario and you make every testing right on time and never fail, that is about the only way someone is going to be eligible to test for 8th dan at age 44.
Start TKD = age 12
1st dan = age 15
2nd dan = age 16
3rd dan = age 18
4th dan = age 21
5th dan = age 25
6th dan = age 30
7th dan = age 36
8th dan = age 44
9th dan = age 53
And outside of the time it takes to reach 1st dan, those are the bare minimum ages and times in rank that KKW regulates.
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01#08
Personally, I see anything much over fourth degree as administrative degrees. I mean no disrespect to any of you who have them. I mean administrative degrees in the sense that they are geared towards those who are school owners or who wish to have a greater role in whatever federation they are a part of.
If all you want to do is run a school and teach students, you really don't need to have a ninth degree, though it does look mighty fine in your school literature.
For KKW instructors, you need to be fourth dan to sign dan certs, which is what 99% of the students who come through the door are looking to earn (hopefully, rather than just receive in exchange for testing fees).
I certainly don't frown upon those who choose to test for higher degrees; I don't have any aspiriations beyond that of school owner, while others do. For some, it is seen as a part of continued study in the art, and that is just fine.
Daniel
If all you want to do is run a school and teach students, you really don't need to have a ninth degree, though it does look mighty fine in your school literature.
For KKW instructors, you need to be fourth dan to sign dan certs, which is what 99% of the students who come through the door are looking to earn (hopefully, rather than just receive in exchange for testing fees).
I certainly don't frown upon those who choose to test for higher degrees; I don't have any aspiriations beyond that of school owner, while others do. For some, it is seen as a part of continued study in the art, and that is just fine.
Daniel
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
The tradition here in the Allen Steen lineage has always been you have to be a 3rd to promote to 1st, a 4th to promote to 2nd, etc
2 dan rank seperation.
in addition, the time between ranks is the same as the rank you want to get to:
2nd dan=2 years after 1st
3rd dan= 3 years after 2nd
etc
2 dan rank seperation.
in addition, the time between ranks is the same as the rank you want to get to:
2nd dan=2 years after 1st
3rd dan= 3 years after 2nd
etc
Similar to our school, though we have to wait a number of years equal to our current rank; one year from first to second, two from second to third, three from third to fourth, and so on.
Just to bring this back to the OP, any degrees given to Chuck Norris hardly do him justice; Chuck Norris doesn't need a degree. He is a degree in and of himself
Daniel
Just to bring this back to the OP, any degrees given to Chuck Norris hardly do him justice; Chuck Norris doesn't need a degree. He is a degree in and of himself
Daniel
In my experience the vast majority of martial arts organizations don't have physical tests (demos maybe, not tests) after 5th degree black belt. At that point, everyone's good--but some are more experienced and doing more to spread or otherwise advance the art.
I largely agree. It's a rank structure. You need someone at the top who can promote people. He needs people below him who can do the routine promotions, and people to fill administrative positions in the org. chart. One hopes it's done on merit, but a good 7th degree black belt is good for as well as at the art.
It has been my experience that legitimate tests over 4th-5th Dan are largely based on your contributions to the art, not on your technique. Do judges want to see your form? Sure, because having good form says a lot about you. But at this stage they pretty much know what your technique looks like and how much power you have. That has already been established. That was established during your junior ranking black belt days. Therefore, it is not necessary to see your sparring or other skills because they already know what you can do. It's also why I've never seen a public test over 5th Dan.
Still, I fail to see what Chuck Norris has done for Taekwondo, especially since he is not a Taekwondo student, to merit awarding him 8th Dan. Is the Kukkiwon that hard up for publicity? Let his instructor award him 8th Dan.
Still, I fail to see what Chuck Norris has done for Taekwondo, especially since he is not a Taekwondo student, to merit awarding him 8th Dan. Is the Kukkiwon that hard up for publicity? Let his instructor award him 8th Dan.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
it's the KKW
this is FAR from the craziest thing they have done.
And what did Chuck Norris do for TKD?
at a time when NO ONE was a korean stylist, he was, and he won NATIONAL titles, and told people he was a korean stylist. He used spinning kicks. When no one else did.
he made KOREAN arts palatable, when before they were not.
it could be said that without Chuck Norris, TKD would never have taken off in america the way it did.
this is FAR from the craziest thing they have done.
And what did Chuck Norris do for TKD?
at a time when NO ONE was a korean stylist, he was, and he won NATIONAL titles, and told people he was a korean stylist. He used spinning kicks. When no one else did.
he made KOREAN arts palatable, when before they were not.
it could be said that without Chuck Norris, TKD would never have taken off in america the way it did.
Hmmmm those facts seem to be missing from http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/
Perhaps you should submit them.
jim777
Master Black Belt
Have to agree with this; long before I started TKD or knew much of anything about Korean arts I simply assumed Chuck was doing TKD because he was doing 'something' Korean. Chuck was TKD to lots of folks I'm sure, so the reputation of the art was well represented by Chuck's ability. Chuck has to be the most famous martial artist to have studied a Korean art.
Do we have some kind of proof that the KKW actually gave Norris an 8th Dan, or is this an academdic exercise?
Well according to the KKW website:
Name CHUCK NORRIS
Current Poom/Dan 6 Dan
Poom/Dan No. 05000480
Date of Issuance 1976-11-22
Ok, a 6th Dan issued nearly 30 years ago. Not an 8th Dan issued recently, as has been the point of contention by some here.
Not sure why folks are upset about something that happened that long ago. Apparently, someone thought that was appropriate at the time. None of us were there, I assume.
Thanks for finding that, mango!
The only thing that I was able to find regarding the organization of issuance was this:
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Dear sir,
I picked up my February 15-28 copy [Volume 3, Issue 4] of Go-Go Magazine and read with great interest the "Art of War" article. I found some items in the Taekwon-Do section that I would like to correct. [Webmaster's Note: The opinionated webmaster had removed the offending section before the article was posted to the website.]
The statistics quoted are for only one Taekwon-Do organization-- the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF). The WTF is the body the controls Olympic Taekwondo. There is another, older, organization that is much different than the WTF. It is the International Taekwon-Do Federation (ITF).
The ITF was founded by General Choi Hong Hi. General Choi is credited with the creation of the name Taekwon-Do in 1955, while serving in the South Korean military. The ITF has over 40 million members worldwide (by its own count).
The National Governing Body for the ITF in the United States is the United States Taekwon-Do Federation (USTF) located in Broomfield, Colorado. The President of the USTF is Grand Master Charles E. Sereff. Grand Master Sereff is a 9th Degree Black Belt-- the first non-Oriental awarded that rank. In addition, the Secretary General of the USTF is Master Renee Sereff, 7th Degree Black Belt. Master Sereff was the first women to reach that very special rank.
Master Chuck Norris was awarded an honorary 8th Degree Black Belt by the ITF, not the WTF. General Choi did this to honor the contributions of Master Norris to the Martial Arts and for his anti-drug work. As you can see from above, Master Norris was not the first Westerner to receive an 8th Dan. Bob Wall and Bob Chaney also received 8th Dans with Master Norris.
By visiting the website www.itf-general-choi.com or www.itf-taekwondo.com, you will find that the Masters of the ITF come from all over the world. The majority are in their 50s or younger.
The ITF truly is a worldwide organization. --Robert Martin ITF/ USTF 4th Degree Black Belt President, North Jefferson Taekwon-Do Maestas Taekwon-Do 303-998-7545
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It would appear, if this is correct, that it is an ITF rank, not KKW. Here is a link to the site I found it on: http://www.gogomagazine.com/0305/editorsdesk.html
Norris bio on his official site simply states that he is an eighth dan in the taekwondo system, no mention of which organization.
http://www.chucknorris.com/html/biog.html
Daniel
I picked up my February 15-28 copy [Volume 3, Issue 4] of Go-Go Magazine and read with great interest the "Art of War" article. I found some items in the Taekwon-Do section that I would like to correct. [Webmaster's Note: The opinionated webmaster had removed the offending section before the article was posted to the website.]
The statistics quoted are for only one Taekwon-Do organization-- the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF). The WTF is the body the controls Olympic Taekwondo. There is another, older, organization that is much different than the WTF. It is the International Taekwon-Do Federation (ITF).
The ITF was founded by General Choi Hong Hi. General Choi is credited with the creation of the name Taekwon-Do in 1955, while serving in the South Korean military. The ITF has over 40 million members worldwide (by its own count).
The National Governing Body for the ITF in the United States is the United States Taekwon-Do Federation (USTF) located in Broomfield, Colorado. The President of the USTF is Grand Master Charles E. Sereff. Grand Master Sereff is a 9th Degree Black Belt-- the first non-Oriental awarded that rank. In addition, the Secretary General of the USTF is Master Renee Sereff, 7th Degree Black Belt. Master Sereff was the first women to reach that very special rank.
Master Chuck Norris was awarded an honorary 8th Degree Black Belt by the ITF, not the WTF. General Choi did this to honor the contributions of Master Norris to the Martial Arts and for his anti-drug work. As you can see from above, Master Norris was not the first Westerner to receive an 8th Dan. Bob Wall and Bob Chaney also received 8th Dans with Master Norris.
By visiting the website www.itf-general-choi.com or www.itf-taekwondo.com, you will find that the Masters of the ITF come from all over the world. The majority are in their 50s or younger.
The ITF truly is a worldwide organization. --Robert Martin ITF/ USTF 4th Degree Black Belt President, North Jefferson Taekwon-Do Maestas Taekwon-Do 303-998-7545
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It would appear, if this is correct, that it is an ITF rank, not KKW. Here is a link to the site I found it on: http://www.gogomagazine.com/0305/editorsdesk.html
Norris bio on his official site simply states that he is an eighth dan in the taekwondo system, no mention of which organization.
http://www.chucknorris.com/html/biog.html
Daniel
