Capoeira works

[Twin Fist]

Q: why do some people insist on using clips of professional and world class fighters doing something as proof that they can do it too?

again, it doesnt matter if a professional can do something in a nice loose karate uniform, or fighters trunks.

can a layman do it in street clothes? if not then it isnt good technique for self defense.

IMO

 

[Cryozombie]

what is your taijutsu CZ??

Budo Taijutsu

 

[Josh Oakley]

Josh,
you are avoiding my point.

IF as you claim, there is more to the "forbidden dance" of martial arts, dont SAY so, cuz that means nothing, show us. Cuz otherwise? its just words.

I would LOVE to do the research, but you have created a nice circular logic here

me: it doesnt work
you: thats not the real stuff
me: show me the real stuff
you: i cant, no one here does it
me: then how do you know it works?
you: it just does
me: it doesnt look like it
you: thats not the real stuff


better question Josh, have YOU studied the so called "real stuff"?

Not enough to call myself a capoiera mestre, but enough to know the difference between roda and luta, and to utilize the non-acrobatic stuff.

I already posted a video on luta by Anderson Da Silva (not the same guy as Anderson "The Spider" Silva). Plus I didn't say there was nobody that does the real stuff in America. I said they were hard to find. Come to Seattle, and I'll introduce you to a couple of really good instructors. Drive out to Cali, and I can hook you up with the guy I learned from. He doesn't live in Seattle anymore.

But I don't have any personal contacts from ANY art in Texas.

But, here, I'm going to denigrate your thought process again. YOU would love to to do the research as you claim, but because of my supposed "circular logic" (which is really just another stawman), YOU can't do the research.

Are you that bad at research that you require other people to do it for you? Or are you really just lazy, and don't really care enough about this topic to do research on it for yourself. Frankly, I think it's the latter. I think you would rather sit in your smug superiority than educate yourself.

But I refuse to be an excuse for your laziness. I am NOT the one holding you back from doing research on your own. YOU are.

And I am STRONGLY encouraging you to do your own research BECAUSE I don't want you to just hit the "I believe" button. Even if I posted an amazingly brilliant, well thought-out, compelling argument with references on this website, I still wouldn't want you to just take my word for it. Look at my last posts. They were me telling you to do your own research.

I doubt you will. You seem content to look at a couple of vids that this websites users post, and then dismiss the whole art based on knee-jerk reactions and a dearth of original research, if any.

God forbid anybody do that with kaju, though. That'd be way off base.

 

[Josh Oakley]

can a layman do it in street clothes? if not then it isnt good technique for self defense.

Define layman. Do you mean layman as in "guy who's never done the technique before" or do you mean "guy who has gained competence, maybe even expertise, but doesn't compete in tournaments"? These are very different street clothes.

Actually, define street clothes. It's already been established we have different standards of THAT. You wear tight jeans and boots. I wear loose fitting jeans and shoes (unless I'm on duty, then I wear loose fitting ACU's and boots).

 

[Twin Fist]

Josh,
no offence, but this is getting boring.

claims were made that something works,
when asked for proof, all I get is CLAIMS, no evidence
this crap is shown NOT working, and we get told that wasnt the "real stuff"

we ask to see the real stuff, and there is nothing but more claims......I have BEGGED for proof of this arts cobat effectiveness.

still got nothing

That isnt a straw man Josh, thats an accurate portrayal of our conversation, and like i said. Boring.

If this had been about Kaju, there is ample proof of it's effecctivness out there. Loads. Tons.

*sigh*

if you like it fine, i will continue to keep my own opinion and wish you nothing but the best in your training
.

 

[Archangel M]

One guy pulling off a move in the ring once or twice does not "proof" of system effectiveness make. Blind Squirrel Theory and all....most people, even most trained people look like those brawling Capoeria dudes when in the "real world".

 

[Josh Oakley]

That went pretty much as I expected it would. Take care, twinfists!

 

[Blade96]

i agree with twin fists that they show us some fancy twirly stuff that people wouldn't most likely do in a tournament, much less a real fight.

It might be that way in Capoeira, idk because i've never studied capoeira.

but i do know that at least in our ones, whose going to make sure they have their soto uke exactly looking right, the way it should be done, when someone is flying all 8 limbs at you. lol. Not in tournament, and most likely not in a real fight either.

 

[jks9199]

Folks, this has been a great and informative discussion about capoeira. I know I've learned some things I didn't know. For the most part, people have done a great job of sticking to discussing the facts without adding insults, personal attacks and cheap shots. If you think maybe you haven't, if you've got that one post where maybe you're pretty sure what you said invites misinterpretation... this is your reminder to stay classy, OK?

 

[ATACX GYM]

Josh,
no offence, but this is getting boring.

claims were made that something works,
when asked for proof, all I get is CLAIMS, no evidence
this crap is shown NOT working, and we get told that wasnt the "real stuff"

we ask to see the real stuff, and there is nothing but more claims......I have BEGGED for proof of this arts cobat effectiveness.

still got nothing

That isnt a straw man Josh, thats an accurate portrayal of our conversation, and like i said. Boring.

If this had been about Kaju, there is ample proof of it's effecctivness out there. Loads. Tons.

*sigh*

if you like it fine, i will continue to keep my own opinion and wish you nothing but the best in your training
.

However much I disagree with the encapsulation you just made of your conversation with Josh,the conversation I've had with you is nothing like that.You first denigrated capoeira's effectiveness as a whole,derided the use of the "au" (the combat cartwheel) and went on to diss high kicks and "the twirly stuff".I proceeded to provide multiple links of world class fighters doing to other world class fighters exactly what you said doesn't work.

Interestingly,you lapsed into silence regarding the effectiveness of kicks in Asian arts,but continued to diss the African-Brazilian hybrid capoeira...all the while not knowing that these same Asian arts are also employing capoeira kicks.Every kick they've thrown is ALSO in capoeira,but there are NUMEROUS kicks and movements that are specific only to capoeira.

Observe more of the twirly stuff that doesn't work so much that it knocks other skilled karateka and people unconscious,done kyokushin karate style:

Ohwaitaminnit.Not only are all the kicks--literally ALL of them--that are in Asian martial arts also in capoeira,but these hardcore bareknuckle karateka ALSO use capoeira kicks? And they're KNOCKING PEOPLE OUT WITH THEM? And these guys AREN'T super duper athletes? Sayitain'tsoTwinFist!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhjV6MXKoTw&feature=related

You asked for proof.I REFERRED YOU TO CENTURIES OF DOCUMENTATION THAT THE SLAVERS THEMSELVES PROVIDED OF CAPOEIRISTAS DEFEATING THEM IN EVERY FORM OF COMBAT THERE IS.There can be no more compelling evidence.You asked for video evidence of it being used now.I showed myself,bareknuckle karateka who AREN'T super athletes and Anderson Silva using the techniques,left links for Anderson da Silva,and promise to deliver further video of myself and my students using capoeira (the fighting stuff) while sparring in the future.

Now...with no disrespect Twin Fist; I'd like you to show video of you kicking capoeira people doing "au" while sparring them.

 

[ATACX GYM]

One guy pulling off a move in the ring once or twice does not "proof" of system effectiveness make. Blind Squirrel Theory and all....most people, even most trained people look like those brawling Capoeria dudes when in the "real world".

Agreed.Thousands of people pulling it off in the face of slavery so successfully that the slavers acknowledge it for 100 of years,followed by repeated success against oppressors all the way until the mid-1930's (all documented by THE OPPRESSORS) makes the system ironclad in its proof of combat efficacy.But only to those who can actually stretch a cerebral nueron passed their preconceived notions.No disrespect,Archangel M and Twin Fist.Just being direct and real about it.

So we're not talking about "One guy pulling off a move in the ring once or twice". That one guy has a mestre.And a class of people.Who can fight.And the mestre and his class of people? They belong to a capoeira organization.A pretty big one.With people in it.That can fight.Using capoeira.And waitaminnit.The mestre has a mestre.Who has a class of people.Who can fight.From a decent sized organization of capoeiristas.Who can fight.All of em using capoeira.Ad infinitum.So your attempt to minimize the fact that the baddest man walkin will capoeira all over your skull simply pointed out the legacy of truly lethal fighters that you try to discount.Here's a fast fact: if THE BADDEST MAN IN THE WORLD FIGHTS OTHER VERY BAD MEN IN THE WORLD WITH IT? IT'S A VIABLE FIGHTING STYLE.I recognize the fact that you disagree with me and that's cool; that's your perogative.However,niether your opinion or mine is the deciding factor visavis the real world validity of capoeira; it's combative skill has been proven over and over and over for centuries.Denial of such facts simply prove that you're literally ignorant as in uninformed about the history past or PRESENT of capoeira.You sound kinda like those MMA guys who claim that kenpo karate doesn't work because they (failed to) see it in the Octagon...

If you asked demonstration wushu guys to fight? They wouldn't look as precise polished and beautiful when they're...ya know...DEMONSTRATING wushu.If you asked purely kata practitioners who win kata championships (think old skool Michelle Krasnoo types) to fight? They'd look like...they can't get down fighting cuz ya know...they're FORMS specialists ONLY.If you take roda practitioners? PURELY roda non-contact practitioners? They'd look like...kata guys fighting.Btw I saw one of the capoeira videos on this thread.They actually show more ability than the average person AND they show pretty sharp facility with hybrid G-R style takedowns.You guys are sleepin exaggerating and being more than slanted in you guys' depiction of them being unskilled.

 

[Twin Fist]

Josh,
nothing but love for ya man.

 

[Twin Fist]

and BTW:

saying "our own history that we wrote says it worked then so it must work now" is................less than convincing.

 

[yorkshirelad]

This is how I see things gentlemen -

Capoeira, regardless of the syle is a badass art. The conditioning needed to pull off most of the techniques is truly extraordinary. I don't believe, however that teaching Capoeira to the average guy as a method of self protection is useful in the slightest. You can show me all your Capoeira skills and wow me with the bollocks, but you'll never NEVER convince me that it is a viable method of self protectio.

Now, about head kicks, I personally do not think that high kicks should be taught or recommended for self protection. I do think that they can be used. Some of Mr. White's guys will take your head of before you even know it,with a hook, front, roundhouse or spinning back kick to the head in competition or anywhere else for that matter. I wont name names because most of the guys are way too humble to admit it.

I also used the example of Tohei Sensei of Aikido to illustrate the fact that prodigies do exist, but as John pointed out they are few and far between.

Atacks, you may quite well be a prodigy. Listening to you rant on, anyone would think that you the ultimate warrior. You may well be able to take on the army of Xerxes with just your left foot and be back home in time for tea and crumpets, but the rest of us mere mortals don't think your methods hold sway for the average Joe.

One other thing Atacks, you really seem to have a potato sized chip on your shoulder. I don't know anyone else here, who can start a debate on a Martial arts topic and have it turned into a racial thread.

 

[Twin Fist]

found a clip of this stuff actually taking someone out.

ya'll have fun with that stuff..

 

[Twin Fist]

Capoeira, regardless of the syle is a badass art. The conditioning needed to pull off most of the techniques is truly extraordinary. I don't believe, however that teaching Capoeira to the average guy as a method of self protection is useful in the slightest. You can show me all your Capoeira skills and wow me with the bollocks, but you'll never NEVER convince me that it is a viable method of self protection

agree 100% those guys are in amazing shape, and clearly they can dance, i just want to see one FIGHT. Just ONE....

Now, about head kicks, I personally do not think that high kicks should be taught or recommended for self protection. I do think that they can be used. Some of Mr. White's guys will take your head of before you even know it,with a hook, front, roundhouse or spinning back kick to the head in competition or anywhere else for that matter. I wont name names because most of the guys are way too humble to admit it.

again, 100% agree

Atacks, you may quite well be a prodigy. Listening to you rant on, anyone would think that you the ultimate warrior. You may well be able to take on the army of Xerxes with just your left foot and be back home in time for tea and crumpets, but the rest of us mere mortals don't think your methods hold sway for the average Joe.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Josh,
nothing but love for ya man.

*fist bump*

 

[searcher]

You're RIGHT,lol.I like Daido Juku,I am sure I could do quite well in a tourney,but...not especially inclined to do a Kudo/Daido Juku tourney.

I guess until I see it used effectively in the UFC or Kudo or MMA, I will keep my skepticism of Capoeira's effectiveness.

Will YOU be attending a Kudo/Daido Juku event?

Funny you should ask, I alter my training routine directly after the Mundials this year. I have been wanting to compete in the Kudo World Championships for some time and would love to make it this year.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Interestingly,you lapsed into silence regarding the effectiveness of kicks in Asian arts,but continued to diss the African-Brazilian hybrid capoeira.

You're new here. He's been dissing the effect of the exact same kicks in Asian arts. You know, the ones that...

....these same Asian arts are also employing capoeira kicks.Every kick they've thrown is ALSO in capoeira

and he has dissed each and ever one of those kicks. At least in the context of being practical for self defense.

but there are NUMEROUS kicks and movements that are specific only to capoeira.

Indeed. As there are in every art. But as you already pointed out, there are strikes that are common to every art. That is because the human body can only move but so many ways and all cultures have been working hard at beating the crap out of each other for millennia.

I was watching the Liam Neeson movie, Taken with a friend and as he was saying, 'now that looks like krav maga,' I was saying 'now that looks like hapkido.' We're probably both wrong, but darned did it look cool watching the voice of Aslan unleash the wrath of God on his daughter's kidnappers.

Point is that any grapple or strike that has been dreamed up in any part of the world has been dreamed up in every other. And for as long as grapples and strikes have been dreamed up, people have been debating the practicality of said grapples and strikes.

Many modern Asian martial arts are designed for both fighting and for personal improvement. Not all parts of all arts are intended for fighting in self defense. Doesn't mean that they can't be made to work in a self defense situation; surprise and creativity can go a very, very long way in protecting yourself. Personally, I think Yorkshirelad's post said it all pretty well.

I have no commentary about capoeira and its effectiveness. I will say that most styles, when practiced correctly and in the context of self defense tend to look more similar than different. Judoka seem to be able to figure out how to punch and boxers seem to figure out how to kick. Kind of funny.

It is the artistic aspects, if you will, that separates arts. The philosophy, the competitive rule set, the forms, and various unique athletic techniques that are unique to each art or to a smaller group of arts.

To be honest, I never really considered the notion that capoeira didn't work until you started this thread.

Most important thing is that you enjoy it and that it is beneficial in your life. Kind of my feeling with hapkido. There are people who will 'dis' kendo/kumdo, hapkido, taekwondo, and karate specifically, and TMA in general. But I've been training the arts since the seventies and I'm at an age where I could care less whether or not some faceless poster with a cutsey nick name thinks that I can fight or whether or not the arts I practice are effective.

Daniel

 

[ATACX GYM]

This is how I see things gentlemen -

Capoeira, regardless of the syle is a badass art. The conditioning needed to pull off most of the techniques is truly extraordinary. I don't believe, however that teaching Capoeira to the average guy as a method of self protection is useful in the slightest. You can show me all your Capoeira skills and wow me with the bollocks, but you'll never NEVER convince me that it is a viable method of self protectio.

Now, about head kicks, I personally do not think that high kicks should be taught or recommended for self protection. I do think that they can be used. Some of Mr. White's guys will take your head of before you even know it,with a hook, front, roundhouse or spinning back kick to the head in competition or anywhere else for that matter. I wont name names because most of the guys are way too humble to admit it.

I also used the example of Tohei Sensei of Aikido to illustrate the fact that prodigies do exist, but as John pointed out they are few and far between.

Atacks, you may quite well be a prodigy. Listening to you rant on, anyone would think that you the ultimate warrior. You may well be able to take on the army of Xerxes with just your left foot and be back home in time for tea and crumpets, but the rest of us mere mortals don't think your methods hold sway for the average Joe.

One other thing Atacks, you really seem to have a potato sized chip on your shoulder. I don't know anyone else here, who can start a debate on a Martial arts topic and have it turned into a racial thread.

Well,Idk about being a "prodigy" or taking on the army of Xerxes,but I can say with absolute 100% clarity decisiveness and truth that I have nothing but my shirt,body armor (for HRSP and LEO training) or my shoulder on my shoulder; there will never be a chip on my shoulder.And I would hypothesize that those who suppose there is a chip on my shoulder and that I turn martial arts topics into racial threads are more than likely projecting THEIR OWN misperceptions onto my posts.As I recall,THE MAJORITY OF CAPOEIRISTAS are White,light and Asian...and to me? They're ALL capoeiristas.Not exactly the most racist stance in the universe,I would think.

Now,I completely understand and empathize with you regarding the negative impression and questionable practicality of the more dazzling capoeira moves.Prior to learning them,I had that same thought...and after learning them? I streamlined them in order to make them more amenable to today's SD reality as I see it.These techniques serve the same function they always have,and as Flying Crane pointed out: these more dazzling moves are "shock and awe" techniques with cunning misdirection and setups.The most important aspect of this whole discussion is completely overlooked,and that is the INCREDIBLE FOOTWORK of the functional luta capoeiristas,which--when amped further by functionality and removed from the fragmentation of stylistic differences--make movements techniques and sequences which would initially seem to be the height of the most LSD-induced folly turn into feasible functional movements that have devastating consequences because the other guy has no idea that they're coming and can't stop them.This last part I cannot overemphasize enough and is the aspect of capoeira which turned me from a guarded,semi-on-the fence supporter into a devout believer.

The best way I can paint a mental image of what the functional capoeirista looks like is: fuse a boxer,bareknuckle MT kickboxer,Olympic wrestler fused with Judo and jujutsu,tkd,gungfu,savate,kali,street fighter,gymnast,and decathlete.Infuse him or her with all the dodges of a guerrilla warrior and smatterings of a krav maga guy.And that's about right for starters.The base of capoeira is very much like what you see in many other arts...and it can/does/will/has finished people devastatingly and swiftly using methods familiar to all MA's.But the moment you're lulled into a state of complacency or an opening for one of capoeira's more dazzling shocking techniques opens up in the defense of an opponent being belaboured by the more "common to other arts" attacks of the capoeirista? BANG.The omg fliptastic acrobatic wth-just-happend wth-izZAT?! move is in there.However,capoeiristas who are genuine functional fighters DON'T start off scrapping with backflips and other tomfoolery.Again,the conversation circles back to the fact that almost all non-Brazilians and quite a large segment of Brazilians have no idea of capoeira's effectiveness directly due to the essential need for secrecy guile and illusion capoeira of necessity cultivated of being a mere cultural expression which--when combined with Bimba's brilliant recruitment of the oppressors to ensure the actual survival of capoeira--put the public's perceptual emphasis on capoeira's cultural dance and acrobatic aspects and away from its utterly ruthless functional combat applications.Again...capoeira's history is replete with the details and specific events inextricably fused with Brazil's socio-politico-economic-cultural development.One must be quite the dedicated student of specifically African Brazilian South American and to some extent Portuguese history in order to get a better grasp of capoeira's history.

Now about head kicks...I believe that they're functional and the average person can do them if they (one more once,folks...wait for it...) TRAIN FUNCTIONALLY.I employ a 8-15 minute stretch-balance-agility routine in my class that will give you the necessary flexibility and balance to reliably clock people in the noggin with head kicks in no more than a month,if you come to train 3/wk.I think that we should train every one of our functional tools and employ them in our arsenal during combat,sparring,self-defense or whatever.It's a weapon that is sure to shock people and have quite a bit of success because too many people think that head kicks aren't feasible and thus aren't trained for combat...like people in the Octagon swore that flying ANYTHING, head kicks,spin kicks,back kicks, front kicks to the face,heel hook kicks,etc. were useless despite what we TMA types have been shouting for years.Along comes Anderson Silva,Cung Le,Lyoto Machida,GSP,Jose Aldo,Yves Edwards,Mark Hominick,Duane "the Bang",Bas Rutten,Chuck Liddel,Anthony Pettis,Frankie "the Answer" Edgar,Maurice Smith,Orlando Weit,Jon Jones,and lotsa others who escape me right now and alluva sudden head kicks,spin kicks,flying knees,switch kicks,sweep kicks,trip kicks,etc. are being done by everyone.This "I toldja so,you just didn't know how to train them" attitude is what I have toward head kicks too.We differ there,yorkshirelad,and that's cool with me.