Capoeira works

[yorkshirelad]

Well,Idk about being a "prodigy" or taking on the army of Xerxes,but I can say with absolute 100% clarity decisiveness and truth that I have nothing but my shirt,body armor (for HRSP and LEO training) or my shoulder on my shoulder; there will never be a chip on my shoulder.And I would hypothesize that those who suppose there is a chip on my shoulder and that I turn martial arts topics into racial threads are more than likely projecting THEIR OWN misperceptions onto my posts.As I recall,THE MAJORITY OF CAPOEIRISTAS are White,light and Asian...and to me? They're ALL capoeiristas.Not exactly the most racist stance in the universe,I would think.

Now,I completely understand and empathize with you regarding the negative impression and questionable practicality of the more dazzling capoeira moves.Prior to learning them,I had that same thought...and after learning them? I streamlined them in order to make them more amenable to today's SD reality as I see it.These techniques serve the same function they always have,and as Flying Crane pointed out: these more dazzling moves are "shock and awe" techniques with cunning misdirection and setups.The most important aspect of this whole discussion is completely overlooked,and that is the INCREDIBLE FOOTWORK of the functional luta capoeiristas,which--when amped further by functionality and removed from the fragmentation of stylistic differences--make movements techniques and sequences which would initially seem to be the height of the most LSD-induced folly turn into feasible functional movements that have devastating consequences because the other guy has no idea that they're coming and can't stop them.This last part I cannot overemphasize enough and is the aspect of capoeira which turned me from a guarded,semi-on-the fence supporter into a devout believer.

The best way I can paint a mental image of what the functional capoeirista looks like is: fuse a boxer,bareknuckle MT kickboxer,Olympic wrestler fused with Judo and jujutsu,tkd,gungfu,savate,kali,street fighter,gymnast,and decathlete.Infuse him or her with all the dodges of a guerrilla warrior and smatterings of a krav maga guy.And that's about right for starters.The base of capoeira is very much like what you see in many other arts...and it can/does/will/has finished people devastatingly and swiftly using methods familiar to all MA's.But the moment you're lulled into a state of complacency or an opening for one of capoeira's more dazzling shocking techniques opens up in the defense of an opponent being belaboured by the more "common to other arts" attacks of the capoeirista? BANG.The omg fliptastic acrobatic wth-just-happend wth-izZAT?! move is in there.However,capoeiristas who are genuine functional fighters DON'T start off scrapping with backflips and other tomfoolery.Again,the conversation circles back to the fact that almost all non-Brazilians and quite a large segment of Brazilians have no idea of capoeira's effectiveness directly due to the essential need for secrecy guile and illusion capoeira of necessity cultivated of being a mere cultural expression which--when combined with Bimba's brilliant recruitment of the oppressors to ensure the actual survival of capoeira--put the public's perceptual emphasis on capoeira's cultural dance and acrobatic aspects and away from its utterly ruthless functional combat applications.Again...capoeira's history is replete with the details and specific events inextricably fused with Brazil's socio-politico-economic-cultural development.One must be quite the dedicated student of specifically African Brazilian South American and to some extent Portuguese history in order to get a better grasp of capoeira's history.

Now about head kicks...I believe that they're functional and the average person can do them if they (one more once,folks...wait for it...) TRAIN FUNCTIONALLY.I employ a 8-15 minute stretch-balance-agility routine in my class that will give you the necessary flexibility and balance to reliably clock people in the noggin with head kicks in no more than a month,if you come to train 3/wk.I think that we should train every one of our functional tools and employ them in our arsenal during combat,sparring,self-defense or whatever.It's a weapon that is sure to shock people and have quite a bit of success because too many people think that head kicks aren't feasible and thus aren't trained for combat...like people in the Octagon swore that flying ANYTHING, head kicks,spin kicks,back kicks, front kicks to the face,heel hook kicks,etc. were useless despite what we TMA types have been shouting for years.Along comes Anderson Silva,Cung Le,Lyoto Machida,GSP,Jose Aldo,Yves Edwards,Mark Hominick,Duane "the Bang",Bas Rutten,Chuck Liddel,Anthony Pettis,Frankie "the Answer" Edgar,Maurice Smith,Orlando Weit,Jon Jones,and lotsa others who escape me right now and alluva sudden head kicks,spin kicks,flying knees,switch kicks,sweep kicks,trip kicks,etc. are being done by everyone.This "I toldja so,you just didn't know how to train them" attitude is what I have toward head kicks too.We differ there,yorkshirelad,and that's cool with me.

Mate, you injected race into a discussion about training, so I can't understand why you consider that I am "projecting my own misconceptions".

Now, did anybody really read all of the above post.....I zoned out after the first line of the second paragraph.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The best way I can paint a mental image of what the functional capoeirista looks like is: fuse a boxer,bareknuckle MT kickboxer,Olympic wrestler fused with Judo and jujutsu,tkd,gungfu,savate,kali,street fighter,gymnast,and decathlete.Infuse him or her with all the dodges of a guerrilla warrior and smatterings of a krav maga guy.And that's about right for starters.

You've been lied to. You aren't practicing capoeira. You're sly teacher has been secretly teaching you sinanju.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinanju_(martial_art)

Daniel

 

[ATACX GYM]

Mate, you injected race into a discussion about training, so I can't understand why you consider that I am "projecting my own misconceptions".

Now, did anybody really read all of the above post.....I zoned out after the first line of the second paragraph.

Where did I inject race into a discussion about training? Please produce the quote.

 

[ATACX GYM]

You've been lied to. You aren't practicing capoeira. You're sly teacher has been secretly teaching you sinanju.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinanju_(martial_art)

Daniel

You've been lied to.Your sinanju friend isn't practicing sinanju.He knows a few functional capoeira lutadores.Lol.

 

[Josh Oakley]

I'd also like to point out that any discussion that gets into capoiera necessarily gets into the topic of race. Any discussion getting into the point of roda will necessarily get into capoiera's history/

 

[Josh Oakley]

And I'm pretty sure I introduced race into this conversation, so I want my credit, damnit!

 

[Josh Oakley]

Mate, you injected race into a discussion about training, so I can't understand why you consider that I am "projecting my own misconceptions".

Now, did anybody really read all of the above post.....I zoned out after the first line of the second paragraph.

No, he injected nationality into the topic. I injected race. And in discussion about capoiera, it's relevant.

 

[Twin Fist]

Yorkie,
I hear ya, the Wall of Text effect kicked in, and the thing is, i can read fairy tales no problem, if they are short and sweet and I am interested.

When I am not interested in blatantly false crap, i cant fake interest, so i never got to the second paragraph myself.........

besides, i went through the "this stuff is super awesome fun sauce, you dont undersand, these guys were supermen who can beat anyone, (insert style) is unbeatable, they are macho super sexy and the toughest, bravest, most polite bullet proof super heroes ever!!! No one can beat them.

in the 80's it was ninjitsu fanboys
int he 90's it was gracie jj fanboys
in the 2000's it was krav maga fanboys
now it is a lambada fanboy

(and no, i aint talking about Josh)

it is always the same, and it is always crap.

 

[Grenadier]

My perspective is that there are many techniques that a particular martial art may teach, that's more for the development of the person, and not nearly so much for the applications of it in actual combat.

The idea of practicing such a technique is to help someone improve his fundamental basis, so that all other areas of his knowledge can improve.

Even though (or maybe because?) my primary art is Shotokan Karate, I agree with Twin Fist in many ways, that some techniques, such as spinning hook kicks, jumping kicks, etc., aren't going to be practical under certain circumstances. For example, on a slippery surface such as a floor covered in spilled beer, a field with uneven ground, etc.

For that matter, there are some kata that I practice, that use a 360 degree jumping / spinning double kick (Kanku Sho), or even a 540 degree jumping / spinning kick (Unsu). Of course I'm not going to use such moves for actual combat situations. Instead, I'm going to rely more on closing the gap, good ole-fashioned punching, elbow strikes, practical kicks, and so forth.

Also, in kata Gojushiho Dai, I'm using a cat stance a lot. Not exactly a practical stance for fighting, though.

Does this mean that what I've been practicing in those katas were completely useless?

Not by any means.

As a result of such practice of the above techniques, my legs have become even stronger, my sense of balance has improved a good bit, and especially my sense of direction has improved. I would hardly call that a waste of time.

I am guessing, that no martial art is going to exclusively use such techniques. I'm pretty sure that just about all valid martial arts these days teach punching using proper mechanics, kicking, etc. There are, after all, only so many ways the human body can perform such techniques.

If someone were to look at me performing kata Unsu during the more "showy" areas, and say "that doesn't work on the streets," I'd have to agree, that my primary attack stance isn't going to be cat stance, or that my primary attack isn't going to be a one finger spear hand thrust, much less the 540 degree acrobatics.

However, the practice of such has helped me in many other areas, that I know that my "street fighting" skills are better as a result.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You've been lied to.Your sinanju friend isn't practicing sinanju.He knows a few functional capoeira lutadores.Lol.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Mate, you injected race into a discussion about training, so I can't understand why you consider that I am "projecting my own misconceptions".

Now, did anybody really read all of the above post.....I zoned out after the first line of the second paragraph.

What this means is...you didn't know what you were talking about before,voiced a literally ignorant opinion,refused to read the correct answer,and you STILL don't know what you're talking about now.You and Twin Fist make a pattern out of this literally ignorant--I mean dictionary definition ignorant here,no insult to your actual person whom I have never and likely will never meet--behaviour.

 

[Flying Crane]

just a quick question here: Has anybody in this thread, aside from Atacx Gym, bothered to go read the post I linked to early in this thread?

 

[Twin Fist]

I did.

I like this line in particular:
" I think that to fight with capoeira will look a whole lot like fighting with any other style: ugly, brutal, brief, decisive. A capoeirista in a real fight isn't going to do a bunch of cartwheels and acrobatics and stuff. That's showing off and the enemy will obviously take advantage of that to strike."


so, what everyone shows us isnt the 'real stuff"

but when we ask to see the real stuff, no one can......

 

[ATACX GYM]

I did.

I like this line in particular:
" I think that to fight with capoeira will look a whole lot like fighting with any other style: ugly, brutal, brief, decisive. A capoeirista in a real fight isn't going to do a bunch of cartwheels and acrobatics and stuff. That's showing off and the enemy will obviously take advantage of that to strike."


so, what everyone shows us isnt the 'real stuff"

but when we ask to see the real stuff, no one can......

Anderson Silva showed you the real stuff.I can and have and will continue to show you the real stuff.And thank you for that post.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

just a quick question here: Has anybody in this thread, aside from Atacx Gym, bothered to go read the post I linked to early in this thread?

Yes; I was an active participant in that one.

And for the benefit of those on page 9, http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93956&highlight=CAPOEIRA&page=7

Daniel

 

[bushidomartialarts]

I'd also like to point out that any discussion that gets into capoiera necessarily gets into the topic of race. Any discussion getting into the point of roda will necessarily get into capoiera's history/

One of the things I like best about Taylor's 2-volume history of Capoeira is that he's telling the story of that martial art. It's unavoidably also a story of slavery in the western hemisphere -- but because he's really talking about Capoeira, it's remarkably free of political silliness.

It's rare to find that topic discussed in a book by other than an angry black person or a guilty-feeling white person. Refreshing to get "just the facts."

As for effectiveness....Capoeira is like any other art that way. The original stuff used for self defense was brutal, horrible and deadly effective. And it was Capoeria. As the world has changed, and people didn't need to be able to fight as often, the emphasis for much of the training has morphed into conditioning, personal growth and artistic expression. And it's still Capoeira.

Just like TKD, Kenpo, Hapkido, Escrima..........even Krav Maga as taught in the states is a pale shadow of the destructiveness taught to the IDF.

End of story.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

As for effectiveness....Capoeira is like any other art that way. The original stuff used for self defense was brutal, horrible and deadly effective. And it was Capoeria. As the world has changed, and people didn't need to be able to fight as often, the emphasis for much of the training has morphed into conditioning, personal growth and artistic expression. And it's still Capoeira.

Just like TKD, Kenpo, Hapkido, Escrima..........even Krav Maga as taught in the states is a pale shadow of the destructiveness taught to the IDF.

End of story.

Indeed.

Daniel

 

[Flying Crane]

One of the things I like best about Taylor's 2-volume history of Capoeira is that he's telling the story of that martial art. It's unavoidably also a story of slavery in the western hemisphere -- but because he's really talking about Capoeira, it's remarkably free of political silliness.

It's rare to find that topic discussed in a book by other than an angry black person or a guilty-feeling white person. Refreshing to get "just the facts."

As for effectiveness....Capoeira is like any other art that way. The original stuff used for self defense was brutal, horrible and deadly effective. And it was Capoeria. As the world has changed, and people didn't need to be able to fight as often, the emphasis for much of the training has morphed into conditioning, personal growth and artistic expression. And it's still Capoeira.

Just like TKD, Kenpo, Hapkido, Escrima..........even Krav Maga as taught in the states is a pale shadow of the destructiveness taught to the IDF.

End of story.

ayup, and to add: for those who understand it properly and who train it properly, it is still a deadly effective method of fighting. But for those who train only for the roda, and a friendly roda at that, it may not be. But either way, it is still capoeira. These are simply two different aspects of the art.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ten pages in and my hoped for alternative to Microsoft Works still has not materialized. Is Capoeira Works still in development?



Daniel

 

[bushidomartialarts]

I think it's under development as a subprogram of Adobe Acrobat....