Capoeira works

[ATACX GYM]

Only in the context of a "roda" IMO.

Soooo...only in the context of a "roda",huh? Well,maybe you forgot that cartwheel kicks were done on the regular back in competition in the 80's,in the heyday of guys like the BKF and Steve Nasty Anderson and Billy Blanks.And not just there either...

kyoushin karate head kicks

more kyokushin karate head kicks

even more kyokushin karate head kicks

this capoeira kick is common in the kyokushin tournies 32 seconds in

With all due respect,again and again and again I say that the utility and functionality of a technique is based upon a combination of what you know who you are and how you train.I can show you and Twin Fist PLENTY more examples,if this isn't a comprehensive enough annihilation of any FACTUAL contention of the lack of utility of head kicks,tkd,and capoeira.

Oh yeah...THIS guy? He trains TKD too.Tell him how much TKD head kicks and jump kicks suck.And he used a head kick--a push kick aka tkd front thrust kick--in his record setting title match victory.

Jon Jones v Rua


aaaaannnnd the BADDEST MAN ON EARTH does capoeira.WELL.

He even used the capoeira front kick feint-setup blended with a aikido setup to fire the bencao that ended this title match.

Anderson doin the ginga in the UFC

Anderson rockin his yellow cord in capoeira

Anderson The Spider Silva v Vitor Belfort

 

[ATACX GYM]

And if your portuguese is up to snuff,check out Anderson da Silva showing a smidgeon of combat capoeira:

Anderson da Silva capoeira kicks takedowns fish hooks grappling etc.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Josh,
I have almost 30 years of FIGHTING, i know what works and what doesnt work

tricks are just that, tricks, you cannot rely on them.

you miss? you are upside down. On your hands, with yoru BRAIN really close to my boots......

how stupid is that?

and I dont give a crap if head kicks work in a tournament ("ask bill wallace") when you are wearing a gi or in fighter's trunks, in THAT "context" it isnt even a fight it is a make believe contest with RULES, sure it might work for that.But i dont waste my time training for make believe contests

i am talking about STREET FIGHTING

you wear a gi all the time? no?

then it doesnt matter what you can do in a pair of pants by KI, what matters is what you can do in JEANS

and you cant do that silly ****, IMO

And if you happen to decide to try, and you DONT die, it was LUCK, not good technique

you want to make a case for it in non lethal tournaments or whatever else, sure, i dont think it is bad for THAT, and lord knows it is great for conditioning and hell, maybe it makes you look cool for the ladies

I couldnt care less

But anyone that thinks that can work for SELF DEFENSE is seriously deluded IMO. Thats all i am talking about is self defense, and only a fool will think he can handstand on the street with a bad guy and the bad guys cousins trying to turn him into a greasy spot.....

I grew up fighting too, guy. Even against multiple aggressors.

1. You must wear some really tight jeans is you can't head kick in them.
2. Head kicks existed before karate tournaments.
3. Savate head kicks predate Savate tournaments.
4. Just because neither of us has attempted a handstand attack in a fight doesn't mean it can't be done. However, AGAIN, you're equivocating all of capoiera to a handstand attack, which just isn't true.
5. I HAVE pulled off a head kick in a real fight. It's about timing and the context of the confrontation.

Okay, go ahead and retort with more posturing, generalizations, and one-dimensional assumptions.

 

[Josh Oakley]

And if your portuguese is up to snuff,check out Anderson da Silva showing a smidgeon of combat capoeira:

Anderson da Silva capoeira kicks takedowns fish hooks grappling etc.

link didn't work

 

[Josh Oakley]

and let me add...boots, realistic clothes, ice, snow, gravel, glass, an average size ROOM!

Savate's always been in boots.

and since when is there snow and gravel in an average size room? (that was a joke)

 

[Twin Fist]

I grew up fighting too, guy. Even against multiple aggressors.

1. You must wear some really tight jeans is you can't head kick in them.

1) no, i am just old...lol but, even when i was young, i knew better than to get that over balanced.

2. Head kicks existed before karate tournaments.
3. Savate head kicks predate Savate tournaments.
4. Just because neither of us has attempted a handstand attack in a fight doesn't mean it can't be done. However, AGAIN, you're equivocating all of capoiera to a handstand attack, which just isn't true.

2)dont care
3)dont care
4) no, i mean that whirly twirly crap too, not just the handstands...lol

5. I HAVE pulled off a head kick in a real fight. It's about timing and the context of the confrontation.

i once hooked up with a bikini model, doesnt mean i did every time i tried, or that i could now

freak occurances dont make a rule Josh, but here is the thing, in combat, on the street, you cant afford to lose, you lose a fight, you could lose your life, so i would think that common sense dictates you do the safest, most effective technique you know, and whirly twirly handstands aint it.

Okay, go ahead and retort with more posturing, generalizations, and one-dimensional assumptions.

experience is just that, sorry you dont value anyone's but the ones you agree with.

 

[Josh Oakley]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=so_HQRCFezU

 

[Twin Fist]

Josh,
dont get me wrong here, I am not trying to diss you, i just dont agree on the SELF DEFENSE value of some of the flashy techniques from various arts, thats all.

 

[Josh Oakley]

1) no, i am just old...lol but, even when i was young, i knew better than to get that over balanced.

how does loose-fitting jeans equate to being overbalanced?

i once hooked up with a bikini model, doesnt mean i did every time i tried, or that i could now

I have only tried it once, because it was available. It worked. Generally I DO kick low, but that time it was available.

In my sparring practices (not point-sparring. continuous, and hard) it's been available many times. I haven't HAD to do a real fight in over a decade.

But then again, I doubt you have been actually FIGHTING, as you say, for thirty years. Hard sparring, maybe. That I could believe. But if you've put yourself in a situation where you need to be FIGHTING for 30 years, you should probably re-examine your life, or move to a safer location.

So how do you keep it up, FIGHTING for thirty years? Do you pay people to mug you? go to a biker bar and hit on the angriest-looking dude there? Just pick a random person in the street and beat the crap out of them?

... Did you marry Mike Tyson?

Other wise, I'm going to guess you've been SPARRING, maybe even very hard, but not likely against guys who are trying to kill you. Hence, my comment about posturing. You inflated your experiences to the much-vaulted level of FIGHTING to seem more knowledgeable about the subject.

Why, I don't know, you've been TRAINING for thirty years, which gives your opinion weight without the chest-puffing.

(Unless you're a cop in a bad neighborhood. Then I retract my statement.)

freak occurances dont make a rule Josh, but here is the thing, in combat, on the street, you cant afford to lose, you lose a fight, you could lose your life, so i would think that common sense dictates you do the safest, most effective technique you know, and whirly twirly handstands aint it.

The whirly twirly stuff is for the roda. Keep in mind that the roda was meant to HIDE the real part of the martial arts, not demonstrate it. The fighting part of Capoirea is different, and I doubt you've seen it.

experience is just that, sorry you dont value anyone's but the ones you agree with.

There are a number of people I've argued with on this site that would disagree with you. I value your opinions in general. But in this case you're the equivalent of a highly experienced foot surgeon arguing on the topic of neurology.

You've never trained capoeira, you've never fought a capoeirista, and you're using a strawman of capoiera to level all arguments against.

Moreover, you've been rude, which is the main reason I said anything. "friendly discussion forum" is what this site says at the top. You've been abrasive to Atacxgym from your first post.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Josh,
dont get me wrong here, I am not trying to diss you, i just dont agree on the SELF DEFENSE value of some of the flashy techniques from various arts, thats all.

Kicks to the head aren't really flashy.

You might not be trying to diss me, but it seems painfully obvious you're trying to diss Atacxgym.

 

[Twin Fist]

Josh, not that I have to, but i am gonna give you a short bio of me.

1) how I post? thats exactly how i talk IRL

2) I grew up in Oak Cliff. South Dallas. (google it)
3) I am white.

those things combined to make it mandatory for me to learn to scrap.

Then I joined the navy. While i was in the navy i hung out at strip clubs alot. Then I started working at them. Lots of drunk sailors and boobs. Then I went into the Army. Same story.

all this time, i still had my smart *** attitude. (I only learned real humility later in life.)

I have been in, literally close to 100 fights. And I am not bragging, (it is actually something i am ashamed of) and I didnt win them all. In fact I got my *** stomped a lot.

But I learned.

Now, i have already gone over what I have learned, and you have already discounted it, and thats ok. I dont care if you agree.

these days, I am old and brittle, so i spar hard, but i avoid the bars. Doesnt change much tho. And mind you, i can throw head level kicks all day, but i know the difference between play and the real ****.

Someone says the twirly style works, but cant back it up with any evidence, and then, when evidence comes up that shows so called twirly style people in actual fights? they look like 3rd graders on the play ground.

"oh, thats not the real stuff"

then show us the real stuff if you want to be taken seriously.

saying something works doesnt mean a damn thing to me, i want to SEE it work, and even then i might think it was luck or a crappy opponent more than smart technique

and i dont give a crap what works in tournments.

i train for real life stuff.

I am judging this twirly crap by the standard of real life

it is failing my tests.

you can say that what i am seeing is the real "combat" version

then show us THAT, or just accept the fact that I, and others will not take this stuff seriously.....

 

[Josh Oakley]

Josh, not that I have to, but i am gonna give you a short bio of me.

1) how I post? thats exactly how i talk IRL

2) I grew up in Oak Cliff. South Dallas. (google it)
3) I am white.

those things combined to make it mandatory for me to learn to scrap.

Then I joined the navy. While i was in the navy i hung out at strip clubs alot. Then I started working at them. Lots of drunk sailors and boobs. Then I went into the Army. Same story.

all this time, i still had my smart *** attitude. (I only learned real humility later in life.)

I have been in, literally close to 100 fights. And I am not bragging, (it is actually something i am ashamed of) and I didnt win them all. In fact I got my *** stomped a lot.

But I learned.

Now, i have already gone over what I have learned, and you have already discounted it, and thats ok. I dont care if you agree.

these days, I am old and brittle, so i spar hard, but i avoid the bars. Doesnt change much tho. And mind you, i can throw head level kicks all day, but i know the difference between play and the real ****.

Someone says the twirly style works, but cant back it up with any evidence, and then, when evidence comes up that shows so called twirly style people in actual fights? they look like 3rd graders on the play ground.

"oh, thats not the real stuff"

then show us the real stuff if you want to be taken seriously.

saying something works doesnt mean a damn thing to me, i want to SEE it work, and even then i might think it was luck or a crappy opponent more than smart technique

and i dont give a crap what works in tournments.

i train for real life stuff.

I am judging this twirly crap by the standard of real life

it is failing my tests.

you can say that what i am seeing is the real "combat" version

then show us THAT, or just accept the fact that I, and others will not take this stuff seriously.....

Never said I DO the twirly stuff. Just the kicks to the head, when they're available. I've SEEN the twirly stuff work (ironically enough outside of a strip club).

Also, I haven't discounted what you've learned. Like I said, I'm for the most part a low kicker.

What I'm discounting is your arguments against capoeira, because you have no real experience of it. Even a basic study of the arts history would show that since its inception, the roda was meant to hide martial arts within dance, and that the real stuff was practiced in secrecy. This is a tradition that hasn't died out. There aren't many teachers in America who do more than the roda. You mostly have to go to Brazil to find a mestre that does.

You really haven't researched it. So your arguments AT BEST are spurious, surface-level strawmen based on an impression of the roda, which is funny in itself because the roda was DESIGNED to make white people think that capoiera was useless for combat.

I'm not trying to denigrate your experience. I'm denigrating your thought process.

 

[Flying Crane]

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Does anybody else notice (especially around the 1:08/1:30/1:43 marks) where Capoeira and "fighting" split? What makes that "Capoeria"?

capoeira and fighting do not split in this video. Rather, you are seeing the "game" aspect split from the fighting aspect. It's still capoeira. Capoeira is fighting and doing what is necessary to survive.

 

[Twin Fist]

Josh,
There is nothing wrong with my thought process, all we have seen is the roda, and when it is shown NOT WORKING, your only reply is that the roda "isnt the real stuff"

you are just demanding that I hit the "I believe" button when i have no reason to believe anything ALL I HAVE SEEN IS CRAP, so, if the "real stuff" is not crap, show us some of it, cuz the roda? it's ****. Its dance that is useless in a fight IMO, but apparently, thats the idea.

So your arguments AT BEST are spurious, surface-level strawmen based on an impression of the roda, which is funny in itself because the roda was DESIGNED to make white people think that capoiera was useless for combat.

I'm not trying to denigrate your experience. I'm denigrating your thought process.

 

[Archangel M]

capoeira and fighting do not split in this video. Rather, you are seeing the "game" aspect split from the fighting aspect. It's still capoeira. Capoeira is fighting and doing what is necessary to survive.

BS. It's MMA except without technical skill in boxing or jujitsu/wrestling. Past the acrobatic twirls and flips, (note hardly anyone actually used kicks) it looks like anybody else brawling on the street.

Not saying that the art won't give you attributes that could be an advantage in a fight, but when the guys in that video ACTUALLY FIGHT it's obvious they should spend more time on their hand skills and jujitsu and less on handstand posing.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Josh,
There is nothing wrong with my thought process, all we have seen is the roda, and when it is shown NOT WORKING, your only reply is that the roda "isnt the real stuff"

you are just demanding that I hit the "I believe" button when i have no reason to believe anything ALL I HAVE SEEN IS CRAP, so, if the "real stuff" is not crap, show us some of it, cuz the roda? it's ****. Its dance that is useless in a fight IMO, but apparently, thats the idea.

No one is demanding anything of the sort,Twin Fist.No one's even trying to change your mind,either.You choose to believe the roda--which is the equivalent of kata--is the same as the fighting aspect of capoeira,which you already acknowledge you have no idea about.Therefore nobody's asking you to believe anything,but to simply consider the import of your own words and the INESCAPABLE conclusion that reasonable,rational minds are led to...to wit: since you acknowledge that you've never really seen the luta aspect of capoeira,you're literally speaking out of ignorance.You quite literally have no idea what you're talking about.

In regards to head kicks not being realistic? Again,that is an opinion squarely contradicted by the entire history of kicking in martial arts.Jump and high kicks of all forms are very realistic if you train them properly.One would think that the flying knee or bicycle knee would be unrealistic too,but it's not.If you don't think high kicks are realistic,that's possibly a reflection of a weakness in your training and maybe a preference of yours.But not only am I very confident in my ability to finish people with head kicks (and I've done that in about 1/4 of my street fights and I can have do and will nail people with head kicks while sparring that can have do and will end the match).

But here's the truth: Head kicks work.

Head kicks worked reliably and consistently back in the day

^^^Let the Andy Hug show you some head kicks punches and stuff

They work now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n71ydR7Rz6M&feature=fvst

The best empty hand fighter in the world does capoeira

He does it alot

and others can and do fight with capoeira

Tonight,Lyoto Machida just caught and TKO'd the legendary Randy Couture with a capoeira-aikido blend setup to a jumping switch Crane front kick. Head kicks work.The twirly stuff work.IF you train correctly.You clearly don't do so (which is your choice) but then you make the obvious logical fallacy and ad hominem of extrapolating from your ignorance into a proveably false conclusion regarding the nonfunctionality of head spin and jump kicks.

And FYI? The au (cartwheel) in capoeira is done for a variety of reasons,not just attack.It's used for escape,distnaecontrol,defense,etc.I absolutely guarantee that I can pull it off against you and anyone on this site.That's not arrogance or ego,it's the fact that I know something that you don't...AND I know much of what you know.I know it WELL.This gives me a very distinct advantage.I absolutely GUARANTEE that I can and will pull an "au" off against you,and very likely something even more spectacular because you don't know its entries setups or applications.Assuming that I'd execute the au within range or in a manner that allows you to counter the movement is simply a truly uninformed opinion to have.But that leads us bak to the fact that you already acknowledged that you DON'T KNOW fighting capoeira...thus my discussions with you tend to have a circular component regarding this matter,because we keep circling back to the fact that you already acknowledged that you don't know whereof you speak.

Twin Fist,my ancestors already did all this while chained and literally under gunfire.Read the accounts of the slavers who hated my ancestors worse than anyone in this word could possibly comprehend...and yet these same slavers not only acknowledged the potency of the capoeristas but acknowledged that these same capoeristas instilled fear in them.I have a feeling that if you told,say,BESOURO about how horrible capoeira is or if you told that same thing to Zumbi or Mestre Bimba or any of capoeira's fighting luminaries any of the things that you opined now? You may not survive the experience of them correcting your perceptions.But you don't have to hop in a time machine.Just mosey on down to Anderson Silva and dare him to use capoeira against you.

and let me add...boots, realistic clothes, ice, snow, gravel, glass, an average size ROOM!

I can execute almost all of these movements under those circumstances without a hitch.I will show videos of me sparring with capoeira against all comers,too.Plus slavers already documented my ancestors successfully doing these things against the slavers who hated them beyond reason.Under gunfire.While chained.And menaced by dogs.And pursued by horses.There's no question that it can be done.And yes capoeiristas also did it while freeing themselves from slave labor in MINES,so we've done it under the closest of quarters and the worst of circumstances.The fact that you ask these questions from a pessimistic perspective means that you literally have no idea of capoeira's history and therefore there will be a circular flavor to our discussions too...because you're unaware,I'm not,and every post that you put up wil lmake that fact abundantly clear.I mean this without a shadow of disrespect venom or vitriol.I mean that merely as a potent acknowledgement of truth.

 

[Flying Crane]

BS. It's MMA except without technical skill in boxing or jujitsu/wrestling. Past the acrobatic twirls and flips, (note hardly anyone actually used kicks) it looks like anybody else brawling on the street.

Not saying that the art won't give you attributes that could be an advantage in a fight, but when the guys in that video ACTUALLY FIGHT it's obvious they should spend more time on their hand skills and jujitsu and less on handstand posing.

uh-huh. once again, you know best. but hey, whaddaya gonna do? Ya give 'em a book and they just eat the pages...

 

[Josh Oakley]

Twin Fists: No, I'm demanding that you do some more complete research before forming an opinion. You haven't. It's really that simple.

 

[ATACX GYM]

capoeira and fighting do not split in this video. Rather, you are seeing the "game" aspect split from the fighting aspect. It's still capoeira. Capoeira is fighting and doing what is necessary to survive.

qft.

 

[Twin Fist]

Josh,
you are avoiding my point.

IF as you claim, there is more to the "forbidden dance" of martial arts, dont SAY so, cuz that means nothing, show us. Cuz otherwise? its just words.

I would LOVE to do the research, but you have created a nice circular logic here

me: it doesnt work
you: thats not the real stuff
me: show me the real stuff
you: i cant, no one here does it
me: then how do you know it works?
you: it just does
me: it doesnt look like it
you: thats not the real stuff


better question Josh, have YOU studied the so called "real stuff"?