Capoeira works

[Twin Fist]

you aint the only one, i dont buy it either

 

[Twin Fist]

leg sissor take down on the street? yeah have fun with that when the bad guys buddy is stomping a hole in your ***.

theory/=/ reality

 

[ATACX GYM]

well you don't stay down with the scissor leg takedown,it's EASY to flow up from the ground and all areas in between when you train it.I used a combo of capoeira's role and wrestling...which bear remarkably similarities here...to flow up EASILY from the ground.Easy money mayne.Add in the role from capoeira and it's a done dada like we say in the hood. Check the get back up on 1:40 on this video.

Cung Le doesn't have the get back up,but his set up is sweet.Just combine the two and and add a little more wrestling and you have my variant.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Sorry. I don't buy it. Even Capoeira practiconers don't use Capoeria when they "fight".

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Impressive gymnasts, beautiful dance, don't buy the "Fighting Art" hype.

I'll take a wrestler/boxer combination over most "Arts" any-day.

You just haven't seen the real deal yet man.And when you become aware of capoeira's unique history,you will be able to tell the difference.Capoeira internacionale/moderna is NOT the fighting capoeira.That's like taking a forms practitioner and confusing them with a fighter.

 

[Twin Fist]

yeah, we ALWAYS think it is different when we do it.................lol

here is a real simple real life rule:

the probability of a technique working for real is inversely proportional to how cool it looks.

 

[ATACX GYM]

yeah, we ALWAYS think it is different when we do it.................lol

here is a real simple real life rule:

the probability of a technique working for real is inversely proportional to how cool it looks.

And yet...I pull it off pretty regularly.So does Cung Le..in K-1 competitions.It DOES look cool...but so does a vicious straight right,a spiking uppercut,elbow combos,a cold blooded jab in single or combination,fluid footwork,a Thai kick to the head,a jumping knee,a jump back kick,knife work... you get the point.I think the probability of a technique working for real is directly related to the skill levels of the people involved in the conflict.Not the cool factor.

 

[Twin Fist]

you say you do a lot.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Bullshido is RIGHT in that the more acrobatic techniques of capoeira are oftentimes sucker punches and shock attacks with absolutely DEVASTATING consequences.

Bullshido hasn't been right about anything since that website went up. It's a troll-hole and completely unreliable.

While I fully agree with you, I think that he meant bushido, and was responding to this:

Having studied both Capoeira (stylized, highly intricate art) and Kenpo (no-frills art focused on effectiveness) I can say Capoiera works well as a "sucker punch." Haven't used it in the street, but I've scored some tournament points because people don't expect other people to move that way.

The physical conditioning is also important. Kind of like MMA. MMA is a sport and has little place in a street fight, but you can't tell me the strength and endurance you get from your cage fight workouts is gonna hurt you in a fight.

Finally, that sort of capoeira is only half of the truth. Traditional capoeira was some brutal back-street, shiv in your back craziness.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

yeah, we ALWAYS think it is different when we do it.................lol

here is a real simple real life rule:

the probability of a technique working for real is inversely proportional to how cool it looks.

QFT!

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

let me put it this way......if i have to get mugged someday, i hope the guy doing the mugging studied, of pretty much ALL the martial arts out there,this stuff.......

 

[Josh Oakley]

Biases much?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

That's like taking a forms practitioner and confusing them with a fighter.

Please define what you mean by 'forms practitioner.'

Daniel

 

[Josh Oakley]

Please define what you mean by 'forms practitioner.'

Daniel

Seems pretty straightforward. A guy whose primary focus is forms. Such as the XMA guys

 

[Bruno@MT]

You know, I could use search and replace to change capoeira to BJJ or ninjutsu, and we'd be having exactly the same discussion. The names of the people involved would change, of course. But it would be the exact same discussion.

 

[Twin Fist]

sure because while "it is the person doing it more than the style" that makes for effective fighting, there are some style that just are not designed for realistic combat

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Seems pretty straightforward. A guy whose primary focus is forms. Such as the XMA guys

Seems, but I would like his response. I like to get an idea of where people are coming. I also find that people can use the same terms differently.

Arts that have forms, aside from exercise focused programs (say, a tai chi 24 based fitness program for the elderly), are not designed to turn out "forms practitioners." They are designed to enable practitioners to fight, the forms merely being a teaching tool and a means of defining the characteristics of the art.

Thus, if someone is a "forms practitiner," it is not a deficiency in the art that they practice, but either a deficiency in their instruction or in their training.

I suppose that I could also ask what he means by 'fighter' too. The Lopez trio are all technically fighters. They have medals and trophies to prove it. I doubt that they are perceived as fighers though.

Anyway, a guy who focuses on forms is just prepared to fight as a guy who focuses on flash & trash demonstration material, which is generally where I put all those above head level kicks, jumping spinning kicks, kicks from cartwheels, or kicks done while breakdancing on the ground seen in many martial arts.

Just to be clear, I have no criticism of the art; I am not a capoeirista and have neither trained in nor gone to great lengths to be familiar with capoeira is like on a technical level.

I do, however, in general agree with the statement made by Twin Fist, which I quoted. I have seen discussions about 'Olympic taekwondo' and many who defend it say, "but the way I teach/train in it prepares you for real fights." We all think that we're the exception to the rule.

Also, I consider it a truism that "the probability of a technique working for real is inversely proportional to how cool it looks."

Doesn't mean that cool looking stuff has no value. We all love to see it in MA films. Jet Li would be out of a job if we all hated it. And the athleticism that it takes to perform cool looking stuff certainly isn't going to hurt you if you need to defend yourself. And cool stuff looks great in demos and can be used to bring people into the arts.

But in a fight against a resisting opponent, be it in a tournament or in self defense, I advise my students to forego the flash. Trying that stuff against resisiting opponents is kind of like a guitarist showing up at a gathering of hot jazz and classical guitarists and trying to impress them with 'Eruption.'

Daniel

 

[Flying Crane]

Please define what you mean by 'forms practitioner.'

Daniel

I was kinda thinking the same thing.

I am a forms practitioner in the sense that forms are a big part of how my system is taught and passed to the next generation and practiced. The forms contain many many lessons and skill sets that are valuable fighting tools, if you understand the forms properly and go about their practice properly.

Forms are not the only thing I do. Forms are not performance art to me, tho I understand that a lot of people make that misunderstanding.

I am a forms practitioner, among other things in my training. Would I be mistaken for a "fighter"? It's a silly distinction and is meaningless.

 

[Flying Crane]

Sorry. I don't buy it. Even Capoeira practiconers don't use Capoeria when they "fight".

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Impressive gymnasts, beautiful dance, don't buy the "Fighting Art" hype.

I'll take a wrestler/boxer combination over most "Arts" any-day.

Go back to my post in this thread, I believe it is post number 12. Follow my link to another thread here on MT where I explain a lot about this. If you read my comments there, a lot of this should be a bit more clear.

There is a difference between the "game" of capoeira which is what is usually seen in the roda, and actually fighting with capoeira. Most people today train for the roda, and not to actually fight. It's a bit like being a padded up tournament tag/touch player vs. a full contact fighter vs. someone who trains for purely self defense. Not the same thing, but different aspects and avenues that the same art can travel down.

Fighting with capoeira would be like fighting with any other art: straight forward, ugly, spontaneous, short, nasty. There would be no fancy moves, no acrobatics, no elegant flips and body positioning.

What is shown in this video is the roda, the game of capoeira, that got ugly and turned into a fight. I agree that most of what was seen was sloppy and not very effective. This is because as I mentioned, most people train for the game and not for the fight. But nontheless, it was still capoeira. To say that even Capoeira practiconers don't use Capoeria when they "fight" is a complete misunderstanding of what capoeira is, how it developed, what its history is. I'm not surprised by such comments as most people, even capoeiristas, are largely ignorant and have a very unrealistic understanding of the history of the art.

But what you saw on that video was still capoeira, tho it was sloppy and not skilled and not very effective.

 

[Archangel M]

Looked more like sloppy MMA (a half assed guard) and poorly trained boxing to me. Call it Capoeira if you like.

If you train in an art and get into a fight are you automatically using your art even if you use nothing that looks like your arts technique?

That seems like too easy an explination IMO.

 

[Flying Crane]

Looke more like sloppy MMA (a half assed guard) and poorly trained boxing to me. Call it Capoeira if you like.

If you train in an art and get into a fight are you automatically using your art even if you use nothing that looks like your arts technique?

That seems like too easy an explination IMO.

suit yourself, you clearly know more about it than I do.