Can you take criticism?

[Sukerkin]

The most damning thing to hear from my teacher is silence. Because that means he's decided that you aren't worth correcting.

This is a very important point that I intended to make in my earlier responses too. Jks said it with a lot less blather than I would've done tho'

 

[LanJie]

Has this type of criticism been given only once, a few times, or is it common practice?

You should grow in your art but you should also love doing it.

Are you miserable. Does this person make you not enjoy your training when you are at your school?

Martial arts should be hard work but it should be fun!

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hello all you considered peeps I wonder can you take criticism of your performance? If so, how well?

Is there a point at which you feel criticism becomes harsh, insulting or personal? And if so, what is that boundary for you?

I know we should be open to criticism and but is it possible that we should close our ears to criticism from certain people even if they are higher ranked and vastly more experienced? I mean, have you a way to discern genuine criticism from something else?

Sorry about all the questions and but I would be indebted for any comment. Thank you
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

I usually am one of the most critical of myself. But over time and experience I have learned to give myself a break until I can review the data.

In part, as you hinted Jenna, it does depend on where the criticism comes from.

However, criticism of your martial arts is the only way you'll ever know if you're really improving or not, so it is quite important not to be too thin-skinned about it.

My sensei used to pick up on faults in my iai all the time and altho' I never let it show, I was a touch concerned that maybe I just didn't 'have it' as far as swordwork went. There was praise in the mix as well but it is all too human to only notice the negative .

Then two events came in quick succession.

A fellow student let on that one reason why sensei would point out a flaw in my performance rather than someone elses was that I had a good attitude and sincerely wanted to learn. Also, I was confident enough in myself to 'take it', so I could serve as an example for the others without wilting .

The other incident was an exception that eavesdroppers never hear anything good about themselves as I overheard sensei and a sensei from another school commenting on how my iai had improved in such a short space of time.

Those two small events helped me maintain my view, that I've ever held, that criticism is not something to be embarassed by but thankful for.

Insults disguised as criticism are another thing entirely.

Some personality types might require that form of 'dominance ritual' to spur them on but not me. I'm sorry to say that I'm of a stubborn personality type which means I can be lead but not driven . Push on me too hard and I forget all my Zen-like 'bend like willow', dig my heels in and push back (Viking+Celt genes will come out one way or the other) :blush:.

I agree on how it is delivered will effect how one processes the data. Which is why I try to review it later not just the moment of feedback.

I had an instructor who would continue to give me feedback. So I could improve. He saw I was trying to improve. Others, that would not listen after a period of time his feedback was not as in-depth or critical or ignored areas the student just did not want to improve upon. Having a good attitude is what people will see and it will also help you learn.

You guys are bang on the money with your comments and the above in particular. And I trust and value your opinions. And actually, I think as I type that trust is maybe a factor?

I wonder would you trust the critical opinion of someone you do not necessarily respect? Or perhaps do not respect as much as you should? I mean, I know we take each criticism on its merit. If this were a medical thing I might get a second opinion and but maybe the analogy would be asking the housemen after the senior consultant's diagnosis I think. Sorry.. attack of the similies.. And but I do value opinions you might have. Thank you sincerely.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

Well I have a couple of points to reply to on this question.

1) I was at a seminar and the instructor and head of the system was teaching a technique. I knew the technique and was helping others learn it and execute it. This young woman who had never trained before, asked me why I was not doing it the same way as the GM. I stopped her and her partner and the people I was working with to watch the GM do it one more time and to see the subtle hand position that was different. the young woman stated I had executed the lock properly as the desired effect was in place. I replied it was not the exact technique that he was working on at the moment. I did a variation, no matter if it worked or not. I thanked her and made sure those around knew it was her who pointed out my mistake.

To many people having a person make this comment with no experience would have most people ignoring the comment. I stopped and reviewed the data and agreed I was different. I then corrected. Criticism accepted and acted upon. But many would not respect the total newbie.

2) Getting feedback from some I do not respect in skill or teaching, is handled completely differently. I saw thank you and move on. Later I will investigate if others have the same opinion by asking. I will see if there is something I can improve to help people learn from me or I can improve on my execution.


As you can see there would be a difference in how I handled the situation, and in the end I respect the total newbie or less trained people, then I do those who think they are trained and spout off.

It depends on what you include when you say "respect". There are people I respect for their technical abilities, while not respecting them as people - so I would trust their critical opinion of my abilities, but not necessarily their critical opinion of non-MA actions. I would love for there to be blanket answer, but the world is not particularly accepting of blanket answers - there's always another scenario out there somewhere.

Kacey has hit it right on. One could say this person is a total jerk and has three girl friends and cannot save a dime as they spend it stupidly, but they know how to move and they can respond to you and your movements and then you could learn from it.

 

[kidswarrior]

If I don't respect them, why would I care what they say about me or my performance?

Exactly right. But if that's the chief instructor, or head of the system, a severe loss of respect may require a change of venue, no?

The most damning thing to hear from my teacher is silence. Because that means he's decided that you aren't worth correcting.

I agree, but with a caveat: some 'teachers' may not be as good, impartial, or positive as Jks'. Some have their own agendas, and some of those agenda items aren't very nice. Possible examples:

*an instructor who focuses on the more youthful students;
*a focus on/different grading (easier) for young female students;
*ignoring female students;
*hidden insecurities (e.g., perhaps over things such as a smaller stature, never having been in a real fight, etc.) and so punish those they see as potential threats;
*And other flaws common to the human race.

In other words, we instructors are human, too, and while I'd love to say every teacher is objective, fair, wishes success for every one of her/his students, and has only the best motives at all times, I've seen too much of the opposite to do so. My point, I guess, is that every situation/instructor/head of system must be evaluated individually, and over time by us. And sometimes, we just need to change instructors. I never hold it against one of my students who leaves because they feel another place is a better situation for them.

BTW, LanJie's post above would be a great template with which to periodically evaluate one's training.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The most damning thing to hear from my teacher is silence. Because that means he's decided that you aren't worth correcting.

I agree, but with a caveat: some 'teachers' may not be as good, impartial, or positive as Jks'. Some have their own agendas, and some of those agenda items aren't very nice. Possible examples:

*an instructor who focuses on the more youthful students;
*a focus on/different grading (easier) for young female students;
*ignoring female students;
*hidden insecurities (e.g., perhaps over things such as a smaller stature, never having been in a real fight, etc.) and so punish those they see as potential threats;
*And other flaws common to the human race.

In other words, we instructors are human, too, and while I'd love to say every teacher is objective, fair, wishes success for every one of her/his students, and has only the best motives at all times, I've seen too much of the opposite to do so. My point, I guess, is that every situation/instructor/head of system must be evaluated individually, and over time by us. And sometimes, we just need to change instructors. I never hold it against one of my students who leaves because they feel another place is a better situation for them.

Another thing to take into account here on the whole silence thing; When talking CMA and Chinese teachers trained in China, this can be a cultural thing. A sifu from the south of China is more likely to talk to you or give comment where a sifu from the North may not comment much if at all.

There can be 2 reasons for this

1) They do not see any reason to comment and actions speak louder than words. If you are doing well why say anything and if you are doing bad stepping in and taking you off your feet when your root is wrong teaches you more. Also any comment is more likely to be harsh and much less likely to be complimentary.

2) They do not think you are serious and don't think you will take the correction anyway so why comment or they did comment in the past and you argued with them or you are not training (and they know it, beleive me) so again why waste their time. Which is exactly as jks said, they do not feel you are worth correcting

This does not make it easy to train sometimes so asking is a way around it but the trick is asking the right question

Just to give a better idea of the difference a woman from Guangzhou (South) once told me Southerners argue Northerners hit.

 

[Brian King]

We had a Systema instructor out (Rob Green) years ago and he was asked a question about controlling your anger when faced with a personal in your face crude verbal attack, which as a prison guard he has some experience. He asked a simple question by pointing out two different situations with the same verbal attack, one situation is you are out on the town, perhaps a nice evening out, a nice dinner a show and good company, while walking down the sidewalk returning to your car you pass near a homeless person, (he) is laying in his own vomit, has not bathed in weeks, unkempt is putting it mildly, this person looks at you and feeling angry at the world, focuses on you and says to you “ you are worthless, you will never amount to anything, you loser” … After saying this in his New York accent, Rob then asked how this would make you feel. After giving us a few moments to reflect on the above situation, Rob then said, change the situation. You are now visiting your mother for Sunday brunch and during the meal she says “you are worthless, you will never amount to anything, you loser” then he asked “how would that make you feel?” Then we explored the differences and the similarities between the two situations and how the same words sometimes had power and often did not depending on the weight we CHOOSE to give them.

Putting myself as if I was in the original posters shoes, received criticism from somebody I did not respect, and was unsure of the validity of the criticism what would I do? Depending on the criticism I would test. If they said martially to do something this way I would test it and see if it was indeed a better movement. Interestedly, I read a nice blog today “if you just swallow everything” written by my friend Kris Wilder that addresses testing things with in martial arts. http://thestrikingpost.blogspot.com/

If the criticism was personal I would remember the old Mexican saying…”If one person calls you a burro (bad translation but will pass the filters) they are the burro, but if three call you a burro, buy a saddle and I would try to honestly view myself through the other persons eyes and see if they have a valid point or not and then if the point is not valid I would cleanse myself (dousing or some other method) and forget it, if the point is valid, I would note it and then decide if it is something I wish to address at this time, if so I will do that work, if not, I will acknowledge the weakness or flaw, file it away for work in the future, then forget it and drive on.

I believe that everything that happens to us and around us can teach us a valuable lesson. This person doing the criticizing may be trying to teach one lesson (valuable and needed or not) but that does not necessarily have to translate into the lesson you need to learn, perhaps the criticism itself is not the important object, but rather your reaction to it might be the lesson better learned.

Good luck Jenna and thank you for the interesting thread
Regards
Brian King

 

[chinto]

yes I can.. dont have to love it.. not my favorite thing in the world to do.. but yes I can, and have.

 

[kidswarrior]

Another thing to take into account here on the whole silence thing; When talking CMA and Chinese teachers trained in China, this can be a cultural thing. A sifu from the south of China is more likely to talk to you or give comment where a sifu from the North may not comment much if at all.

Just to give a better idea of the difference a woman from Guangzhou (South) once told me Southerners argue Northerners hit.

Interesting. None of my sifu have been from China, although their instructors sometimes were.

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

I get my students picking me up on when I muddle my kata. Can't change the kata so you just gotta laugh and then congratulate the student for pulling you up on it.
Without criticism (from anyone, not just your superiors) you can't know where you're going wrong. Noone is beyond mistake and noone certainly knows it all. You just need to keep striving for it. The only way to strive for it is to recieve and constructively use the criticism that you recieve from others.

 

[jkembry]

Criticism is just that, a form of critique, hopefully meant to teach or correct. For me it all comes down to how it is presented. If it is meant to berate or belittle...then I don't tend to accept it...however it it turns out to be a teaching tool...I am all for it.

 

[tshadowchaser]

My instructor would find something to criticize every day I ever studied with him. Sometime it would be constructive at other times not but it was part of the work out. If he did not say something I knew I had really screwed up.

 

[Jenna]

Exactly right. But if that's the chief instructor, or head of the system, a severe loss of respect may require a change of venue, no?

I agree, but with a caveat: some 'teachers' may not be as good, impartial, or positive as Jks'. Some have their own agendas, and some of those agenda items aren't very nice. Possible examples:

*an instructor who focuses on the more youthful students;
*a focus on/different grading (easier) for young female students;
*ignoring female students;
*hidden insecurities (e.g., perhaps over things such as a smaller stature, never having been in a real fight, etc.) and so punish those they see as potential threats;
*And other flaws common to the human race.

In other words, we instructors are human, too, and while I'd love to say every teacher is objective, fair, wishes success for every one of her/his students, and has only the best motives at all times, I've seen too much of the opposite to do so. My point, I guess, is that every situation/instructor/head of system must be evaluated individually, and over time by us. And sometimes, we just need to change instructors. I never hold it against one of my students who leaves because they feel another place is a better situation for them.

BTW, LanJie's post above would be a great template with which to periodically evaluate one's training.

Hey Mark man you nailed it right there.. This is what I am saying only going all round the houses trying to say it.. Thank you for cutting through.

I think we are all, in some ways at least, influenced by peers, by rumour, hearsay and, in the case of our MA, by reputation of our seniors and masters. There is an expectation that when the highest in the hierarchy deigns to criticise then it is for the benefit of the student and the furtherance of the art. In disagreeing with particular criticism, a student may feel impertinent or simply bang out of order for so doing.

Of course I have my own prejudices like everyone. I find it confusing as to how or whether to take a particular critique and which was a fairly public and driving... well, tirade would not be too far off the mark.. Anyways, I sincerely appreciate your lucidity.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Xue Sheng]

Interesting. None of my sifu have been from China, although their instructors sometimes were.

My Sanda Sifu is from the north, my Taiji Sifu is from the South but trained by a northerner, my Wing Chun Sifu was trained by a Southerner, My Xingyiquan Sifu had one Sifu that was from the south and my first Sifu was from the North.

I can say that Northerners tend to talk less and do more by example and if they comment it tends to be harsh. From what my sifus that were trained by Southerners tell me their teachers apparently told them a lot. My Taiji Sifu is a mixture, talks more than a Northerner but prefers example over talking and I have received many comments over the years form him all harsh except for two time he said to me "that's good"

I am however not sure if the further North you get they talk less or if it is a generational thing. My Sanda Sifu talks less than any of them and he is from the furthest North but he is also the youngest of the sifus I have had from China.

 

[bowser666]

People always need to remember , that when training , and in life in general, you should leave your pride at the door and be humble. Criticism is how you learn. Others can see our flaws when we can't. That is how we grow. To quote a old chinese term. In order to reach your best , you must eat bitter. ( suffer) Criticism is just one of them.

 

[Phoenix44]

Sure, I can handle criticism, provided it's given politely and in the spirit of helping me improve.

There's a difference between

#1 "Your uppercut is really weak and ineffective." and #2 "You need to get under your uppercut more...it'll give you more power."

#1 Makes YOU feel superior, but does nothing for ME, and I don't appreciate it.

#2 Tells me you cared enough to make a thoughtful observation, and shows me how to improve. I'm appreciative.

 

[Kacey]

Sure, I can handle criticism, provided it's given politely and in the spirit of helping me improve.

There's a difference between

#1 "Your uppercut is really weak and ineffective." and #2 "You need to get under your uppercut more...it'll give you more power."

#1 Makes YOU feel superior, but does nothing for ME, and I don't appreciate it.

#2 Tells me you cared enough to make a thoughtful observation, and shows me how to improve. I'm appreciative.

I agree and I don't... #1 could be intended to make the speaker feel better, that's true - but sometimes it's just that the speaker has no real idea how to provide constructive criticism. The problem I see with #1, without any voice tone, facial expression, or body language to give me hints as to the speaker's intent is that it is not useful as a critique - it gives the person being critiqued nothing to use to improve, whereas #2 does provide specific details on what is wrong and what to work on.

One of the most powerful exercises I have ever done with my students is to have them come up and do a pattern, one at a time - following which, every other student would then provide 1 compliment and 1 critique, which had to be delivered in terms of "this is what you need to improve and this is how you can improve it". Spotting things that need improvement was pretty easy - but coming up with the "how to improve it" was very hard, and in the long run, does more for the students' own training, because it causes them to analyze their own technique the same way. It also prevents the defeatism that comes with "I know it's wrong but there's nothing I can do about it" - because it gave them all the tools to figure out how to change things about their techniques. We don't do it very often, because it takes a huge chunk of class time - but my students love this particular activity.

 

[Phoenix44]

I agree and I don't... #1 could be intended to make the speaker feel better, that's true - but sometimes it's just that the speaker has no real idea how to provide constructive criticism.

Whoa...I never even thought of that. Good point.

OR, the speaker has no idea HOW to help you with the problem, in which case I think s/he could say, "This doesn't look right, but I'm not sure how to fix it...let's ask..."

But either way, I think phrasing it in a completely negative way makes the student less likely to feel comfortable accepting criticism. At our dojo, we're taught HOW to criticize a student, and we're discouraged from using words like "bad," "not good," "not right," "I'm not seeing what I want," etc. It's been suggested that we say something like, "You've got the basic movement right--now let's lower your stance." And obviously your demeanor and tone can make a difference. So does positive feedback when the student makes the effort to improve.

 

[Kacey]

Whoa...I never even thought of that. Good point.

OR, the speaker has no idea HOW to help you with the problem, in which case I think s/he could say, "This doesn't look right, but I'm not sure how to fix it...let's ask..."

But either way, I think phrasing it in a completely negative way makes the student less likely to feel comfortable accepting criticism. At our dojo, we're taught HOW to criticize a student, and we're discouraged from using words like "bad," "not good," "not right," "I'm not seeing what I want," etc. It's been suggested that we say something like, "You've got the basic movement right--now let's lower your stance." And obviously your demeanor and tone can make a difference. So does positive feedback when the student makes the effort to improve.

Oh, I agree completely that constructive criticism is much more effective than destructive criticism, as I said earlier in the thread. But I've also known plenty of people who had no idea how to offer constructive criticism, and had to be taught explicitly how to do it.

 

[kidswarrior]

My Sanda Sifu is from the north, my Taiji Sifu is from the South but trained by a northerner, my Wing Chun Sifu was trained by a Southerner, My Xingyiquan Sifu had one Sifu that was from the south and my first Sifu was from the North.

I can say that Northerners tend to talk less and do more by example and if they comment it tends to be harsh. From what my sifus that were trained by Southerners tell me their teachers apparently told them a lot. My Taiji Sifu is a mixture, talks more than a Northerner but prefers example over talking and I have received many comments over the years form him all harsh except for two time he said to me "that's good"

I am however not sure if the further North you get they talk less or if it is a generational thing. My Sanda Sifu talks less than any of them and he is from the furthest North but he is also the youngest of the sifus I have had from China.

Yikes! Now if we throw in introverted/extroverted and other personality differences... Well, it's clear you've got to write a book.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yikes! Now if we throw in introverted/extroverted and other personality differences... Well, it's clear you've got to write a book.

I will have to think about it

But now I am off to go meet with my Sanda sifu of little words and get a beating and have a few harsh comments thrown at me - Northern CMA is just soooo cool... a bit painful.. but cool