Would you rather win at all costs? Or win correctly?

”The meaning of Jigen-ryu is to polish your and sharpen your beloved sword, then secure it firmly into its scabbard, say nothing rude, do nothing rude or offensive, always have correct manners, and never draw your sword”.
This quote may state the ideals, but then there's also practical reality.

Jigen-ryu doctrine also says the sword is a tool to defeat the enemy, not to protect oneself. It further says seek to win the battle with your first strike. You make it sound like it's a Sunday school tea party. It was an art in Matsumura's time used to kill.
 
It's a bit like chivalry- not much more than an ideal. I'm conflicted over whether even to pay lip service to it. Sometimes I suspect that the truth is we are whacking the stuffing out of each other for fun and it's necessary to mouth those platitudes so that society will allow us to do so.
 
The Samurai warriors were hard men, much like the Spartans (though more cultured). They lived in a time filled with violence and even simple decisions carried the weight of life or death. They did not draw their swords haphazardly, but when they did, immediately killing the opponent was the goal. They went "all in" in whatever action they undertook.
 
The Samurai warriors were hard men,
…until 1603 onwards (Edō Era) when many became clerical workers within fife castles. Towards the end of the Edō period (1603-1868) many Samurai didn’t even know how to wield a sword in anger but they could probably complete your annual tax return. 😄
 
This quote may state the ideals, but then there's also practical reality.

Jigen-ryu doctrine also says the sword is a tool to defeat the enemy, not to protect oneself. It further says seek to win the battle with your first strike. You make it sound like it's a Sunday school tea party. It was an art in Matsumura's time used to kill.
You are too hurried in dismissing.

It’s a quote from Jigen-ryu”s own website,
and here’s more -

“The techniques and mentality of Jigen-ryu

Chui was asked what the essence of Jigen-ryu was by a student, and answered as follows.
The meaning of Jigen-ryu is to polish your and sharpen your beloved sword, then secure it firmly into its scabbard, say nothing rude, do nothing rude or offensive, always have correct manners, and never draw your sword.

One of the hand guards made by Chui has two small holes which could be used to pass a thread through securing the sword in its scabbard and making it more difficult to draw in anger.

One of Chui’s students was suddenly involved in a confrontation and remembering this teaching didn’t reach for his sword as the opponent approached. Just as he thought he was about to be cut down, he realized that his sword was drawn and his opponent was lying dead in front of him. The teaching “swords are not to be drawn” warns against unnecessary killing and that when in danger having no doubts and being in a state of munen-muso is the central teaching of this school of swordsmanship.”



Jigen-ryu Hyoho
 
You are too hurried in dismissing.

It’s a quote from Jigen-ryu”s own website,
and here’s more -

“The techniques and mentality of Jigen-ryu

Chui was asked what the essence of Jigen-ryu was by a student, and answered as follows.
The meaning of Jigen-ryu is to polish your and sharpen your beloved sword, then secure it firmly into its scabbard, say nothing rude, do nothing rude or offensive, always have correct manners, and never draw your sword.

One of the hand guards made by Chui has two small holes which could be used to pass a thread through securing the sword in its scabbard and making it more difficult to draw in anger.

One of Chui’s students was suddenly involved in a confrontation and remembering this teaching didn’t reach for his sword as the opponent approached. Just as he thought he was about to be cut down, he realized that his sword was drawn and his opponent was lying dead in front of him. The teaching “swords are not to be drawn” warns against unnecessary killing and that when in danger having no doubts and being in a state of munen-muso is the central teaching of this school of swordsmanship.”



Jigen-ryu Hyoho
I'm not dismissing anything. No arguments on any of the principles of jigen-ryu. Just giving balance to the post I responded to. I thought some mention of killing your opponents should have been mentioned as well, which you have in the post quoted above.

As for the holes in some tsuba (not really uncommon in those made by various craftsmen), I think the main purpose was to thread a cord to secure the sword or saya from getting away from the owner during use or galloping on a horse. It doesn't seem like a good idea to hinder the drawing of a blade when instant unsheathing may be called for. I would guess that the symbolic explanation you provided came in a more recent, gentler time. Perhaps a couple of our fellows with more expertise on the subject can clarify this.
 
One of the hand guards made by Chui has two small holes which could be used to pass a thread through securing the sword in its scabbard and making it more difficult to draw in anger.
They were to accommodate the handles of two little implements to be secured into the side of the scabbard: one was a kozuka utility knife used for cutting fruit etc (not as a weapon)
IMG_5043.webp


The other was for the handle of a kogai, a blunt probe used for tidying the hair or scratching a helmeted head and the other for the removing ear wax!
IMG_5044.webp


Swords didn’t necessarily have both implements, but tsuba were often made with two holes.

In the relatively peaceful Edō period (1603-1868) when swordsmanship shifted from a fighting art to a means of spiritual development, some swordsmen used a twisted paper ‘string’ to lash the tsuba (via one of these holes) to the kurigata of the scabbard thus discouraging them from using their swords for trivial purposes. However is was only twisted paper thus easily broken; if they really meant to make their swords transiently unusable, perhaps they’d’ve used something more substantial.
 
When my teacher's teacher passed away, the last words came out of his mouth was, "一狠二毒三要命 First be fierce, second be ruthless, third be life‑taking". He told my teacher to pass this old Chinese MA saying to the next generation".

老祖宗的智慧总结,中国武术谚语实战篇,武术在实战的运用

“The ancestors distilled this wisdom: Chinese martial‑arts proverbs for real combat —the practical side of applying martial arts in real situations.”

一狠二毒三要命,见空就打莫留情,容情不动手,动手不留情, 狠打善,快打慢,长打短,硬打软, 过手放对莫疏忽,一胆二力三功夫.

**“First be fierce, second be ruthless, third be life‑taking. Strike whenever you see an opening—show no mercy. If you show mercy, don’t strike; if you strike, don’t show mercy.

Fierce beats skilled, fast beats slow, long beats short, hard beats soft.

Once the hands make contact, stay alert and don’t get careless. Courage comes first, strength second, skill third.”**
 
When my teacher's teacher passed away, the last words came out of his mouth was, "一狠二毒三要命 First be fierce, second be ruthless, third be life‑taking".
Sounds like the old Cobra Kai from The Karate Kid.
Fierce beats skilled, fast beats slow, long beats short, hard beats soft.
I agree with the first two, not sure what the third means, and the last one I think is not always true.
 
I agree with the first two, not sure what the third means, and the last one I think is not always true.
- Long spear beats short sword.
- You can use hard to kill. You can't use soft to kill. Soft can only be used for setting up. It cannot be used for the final killing.

 
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I'm not dismissing anything. No arguments on any of the principles of jigen-ryu. Just giving balance to the post I responded to. I thought some mention of killing your opponents should have been mentioned as well, which you have in the post quoted above.

As for the holes in some tsuba (not really uncommon in those made by various craftsmen), I think the main purpose was to thread a cord to secure the sword or saya from getting away from the owner during use or galloping on a horse. It doesn't seem like a good idea to hinder the drawing of a blade when instant unsheathing may be called for. I would guess that the symbolic explanation you provided came in a more recent, gentler time. Perhaps a couple of our fellows with more expertise on the subject can clarify this.
In the post where I first quoted from Jigen ryu website I provided the link, that you easily could open to read further, since you didn’t do that, I quoted further(and provided the link again). The website is of the school that also house the Jigen ryu museum, so I guess they know quite well what they claim about the Jigen ryu history.
However there is contact info on their website so you can reach them if you sit on info about their school they don’t know about
 
Isn't fighting sort of inherently unfair? It's all about deception. Catching opponent of guard, when guard is down, baiting them...... That's how you win, by using various tactics to deceive to facilitate landing a blow, getting a submission whatever. Part of what a ruleset does is try to level the playing field to make it more fair. I'm happy to use something my opponent isn't prepared for if winning is the goal.
No its not. We can attack. Defend and attack. All manner of methods in winning. But in Japan it's "Sen" To wait for the opponent to attack and use that attack againts him. When he is mentally commited to attack and has slighlty physical commited himself is when you take him out.
 
Why do you even need a sword for if you never want to draw your sword?
I am surprised you even said this. Sounds like a Reddit response. We all practice our cultural pursuits. because "that's" what they are. Nobody walks around with these weapons anymore. It's an art form that we study. The ultimate in drawing a sword is that we never actually need to draw it. We carry it in the way of peace.
 
I am surprised you even said this. Sounds like a Reddit response. We all practice our cultural pursuits. because "that's" what they are. Nobody walks around with these weapons anymore. It's an art form that we study. The ultimate in drawing a sword is that we never actually need to draw it. We carry it in the way of peace.
One time I walked in Mantana wood (It was legal to open carry firearm back in the 80, not sure about today), A grizzly bear walked toward me in about 20 feet. I had my right hand with a 44 magnum, and my left hand with a bear pepper spray. If that grizzly bear walked closer to me, I know I would fire my 44 magnum.

When I was in the wood along, I did intend to use my firearm if needed. I carry my firearm so I won't be killed by grizzly bear. I also have no desire to kill any grizzly bear either. Can I say that I carry my firearm for peace?
 
One time I walked in Mantana wood (It was legal to open carry firearm back in the 80, not sure about today), A grizzly bear walked toward me in about 20 feet. I had my right hand with a 44 magnum, and my left hand with a bear pepper spray. If that grizzly bear walked closer to me, I know I would fire my 44 magnum.

When I was in the wood along, I did intend to use my firearm if needed. I carry my firearm so I won't be killed by grizzly bear. I also have no desire to kill any grizzly bear either. Can I say that I carry my firearm for peace?
You could also lay down on ground playing dead……that would also be a story to be told
 
One time I walked in Mantana wood (It was legal to open carry firearm back in the 80, not sure about today), A grizzly bear walked toward me in about 20 feet. I had my right hand with a 44 magnum, and my left hand with a bear pepper spray. If that grizzly bear walked closer to me, I know I would fire my 44 magnum.

When I was in the wood along, I did intend to use my firearm if needed. I carry my firearm so I won't be killed by grizzly bear. I also have no desire to kill any grizzly bear either. Can I say that I carry my firearm for peace?
This was the original philosophy for the sword. World War II was a major turning point, used for all the wrong reasons. So the Japanese were keen to get back to the original intentions. So it was reconstituted as a sport-like educational tradition. The sword really does not figure in anything to do with bear spray or a gun as it's just an educational tool. I get your point, but we again drift towards this Western concept of the arts being used for self-defense.
 
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