Would you rather win at all costs? Or win correctly?

Prince_Alarming said:
To be fair though, I have a friend who's fought both in Thailand and this country semi-professionally, and he's always annoyed with himself if he 'wins ugly' as you might put it. The way I see it, that makes him a true sportsman. Matters not whe're you win or lose but how you play the game and all that and I think there's something to be said for that kind of old fashioned sportsmanship. Shaking the other fellow's hand. Losing graciously- looking at you, English football. Being magnanimous in victory.
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I can see that. When I won on a fluke (lucky punch) KO or TKO, it never felt as good.
 
Ivan said:
I recently had a thought sparked by my favourite work of fiction, Baki. Iā€™ve watched the original anime, and watched the modern adaption on the alter arcs of the Manga numerous times. I think iā€™ve easily rewatched it over 5 times now. I love the fighting scenes, the presentation of different martial arts and their history, and the clashes of different ideologies when two characters duke it out.

Recently in the mangas, a fight has been brewing between two main characters who are completely different in every way. Especially in ideology. One of them believes that a fighter should seek to win every encounter at all costs. In contrast, the other believes that a fight should be won in a manner that is fair to the opponent.

I have always had the latter mindset. To me, a victory in a match, or rolling, in jiujitsu has to be earned correctly, so that there is no room for doubt. I donā€™t like it when I tap my sparring partner out because I surprised him with a certain submission or move they havenā€™t experienced before. I remember being in this exact situation when I placed a sparring partner of higher rank than me into a Goth lock (An Americana lock using your legs from the Scarf Hold/Kesa Gatame position). He had never experienced it before and was so surprised that he barely got time to tap to it. It was one of my first times ever tapping him, and he tapped me multiple times almost every time we sparred, but this felt so hollow to me.

I donā€™t like taking my opponents by surprise. I donā€™t like winning by points in competition, and I donā€™t like using moves that are considered ā€œbiffyā€ (over reliant on strength) or ā€œdickā€ moves. For me, the perfect victory is when the opponent knows what technique/submissions I am looking to execute, and do their best to fight against, but my technique or execution is too good for them to do anything about it.

I find it very important to my identity and being to be as moral and honourable as possible. Itā€™s a core part of me. I think I just internalised the traits of many stoic characters in fiction as I grew up, and associated with the masculine ideal; my favourite example of this is probably Ned Stark, but others include Aragorn, The Predators, Obi Wan Kenobi, Thrall, The Bloodhoofs etc.

What mindset is more beneficial to a competitive athlete or fighter? What about to a martial artist? And what mindset do you hold?
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remember this time around when i got back at it, we put on the gloves i had not that done that in 33 years at the time, first i sparred with a guy that was one belt lower then me i let him have the body shots, no head shots though, already have had 8-9 concussions dont need that anymore and plus i was not going to bruise this guys ego, heck i liked him, then i sparred with my teacher he is a few years old then i am i was 60years old at the time he was 67 yeas old he is a third degree black belt and he been in the arts for 14 years, after we finished he was so out of breath but man could guy move! i could not get a shot in on him in the reverse side i could not get a shot in on him, but i just remember feeling so bad about it i did no celebrating did not even feel like it but it was all good and he continued teaching me for another year he was co-instructor but a very good guy and a good teacher will never forget him even called me a martial artist well i dont know about that i just get out show up and train hard.
 
I think our (martial arts) sensibilities of winning ā€˜correctlyā€™ are inherently flawed. To use the samurai as examples, they would win at all costs for the sake of their leige lord/clan. That would include slaughtering women and children without a second thought, attacking as the enemy as he ran away, caving in skulls with rocks etc. This is our (Japanese) martial arts heritage. Iā€™ve seen a two man kata (from Araki Ryu) where the shidachi carefully and politely serves tea/sake to their kneeling enemy. At the last moment, the tray of liquid is thrown into uchidachiā€™s face, theyā€™re manipulated to the ground just before they cut down in the confusion. This is the true way of the martial arts; you take the advantage of the initiative because if you donā€™t, your enemy will.

Nice as the sentiment is, when I hear phrases like ā€˜Karate ni sente nashiā€™ (ā€˜there is no first attack in karateā€™) I try hard not to roll my eyes and think, ā€˜Good luck mateā€™!
 
The point Iā€™m trying to make is that true martial arts, cut, punch, kick, scratch, bash etc to preserve their lives/duty to their leige lord.

What we have with current martial ideas of peace, love and good happiness stuff is a modern conformation onto modern combat sports like Karate/Judo/Kendo etc. They were levered into place, in part, to pacify the post-war occupying forces notion that the martial arts were aggressive, militaristic and thus a threat their ideas of peace. ā€œMr Occupier, you think Kendo is violent and aggressive activity training its practitioners how to fight and cultivating a nationalist ethos? Absolutely not. See , thereā€™s no first strike in Karate (itā€™s defensive) and we love our enemies as we throw them around and love them too.ā€

Gendai budo have very little to do with the martial arts as utilised by the Samurai and are indeed, a mollification of them.
 
We, however, are not japanese medieval warriors. We are hobbyists and sportsmen living in the 21st century, and our culture has a tradition of good sportsmanship, and what's more except in the context of imperialism, violence is taboo in our society. Not that it doesn't happen, but it doesn't happen that often. Also, quite rightly, we have laws proscribing it. What's more, I personally cannot take part in acts of real violence for religious reasons. Besides, these loafers are Italian.
 
From the sword school thatā€™s probably the most direct and aggressive in training , the school that influenced the karate style of the great Gichin Funakoshi

ā€The meaning of Jigen-ryu is to polish your and sharpen your beloved sword, then secure it firmly into its scabbard, say nothing rude, do nothing rude or offensive, always have correct manners, and never draw your swordā€.


Jigen-ryu Hyoho
 
Prince_Alarming said:
I'd say 'reasonable force' personally. That's certainly what the law says in this country. Of course, sometimes overwhelming force is reasonable...
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Old saying said, "If you start a fight, you should see blood". 99.99% of the time, you don't hate your opponent that much. There is no reason to start that fight.

Only after you have seen the most violence, you will then truly appreciate the most peacefulness.
 
Dirty Dog said:
Fair fights are for tournaments. Anything else, if it cannot be avoided, should be met with overwhelming force.
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Fighting correctly is a point of view. If you want to win you should not limit yourself to the concept of correctness.

Tournaments have rules. You should use them to your advantage. Much like our lot in life, most fights are not fair to begin with.

Iā€™m not advocating cheating but I do believe it is ok to win a fight in a less than clean manner. If you have ever watched basketball or many other sports, often things like well placed timeouts determine the victor.
 
philwhite said:
If you have ever watched basketball or many other sports, often things like well placed timeouts determine the victor.
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Timeouts are part of the rule set and there is enough flexibility in when a team may call them, that they can be used strategically. So this is completely part of the rules.

I would say that winning a competition by sneaking in strikes and such that are prohibited by the rules, is cheating, and winning in a dirty way. Taking advantage of a position that prevents the referee from seeing an illegal technique, etc. That isnā€™t a win. That is dishonorable. Of course this only has meaning within the context of a competition governed by rules. Outside of that, it is meaningless.
 
Flying Crane said:
Timeouts are part of the rule set and there is enough flexibility in when a team may call them, that they can be used strategically. So this is completely part of the rules.
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Iā€™m soccer we have this strategy called ā€˜divingā€™ where a player pretends to have been subject to a painful foul
Flying Crane said:
I would say that winning a competition by sneaking in strikes and such that are prohibited by the rules, is cheating, and winning in a dirty way.
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Yes, itā€™s not good sportsmanship.
Flying Crane said:
Taking advantage of a position that prevents the referee from seeing an illegal technique, etc. That isnā€™t a win. That is dishonorable.
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I totally agree
Flying Crane said:
Of course this only has meaning within the context of a competition governed by rules. Outside of that, it is meaningless.
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All competition has rules, only ancient warfare had no rules.
 
Kung Fu Wang said:
Old saying said, "If you start a fight, you should see blood". 99.99% of the time, you don't hate your opponent that much. There is no reason to start that fight.

Only after you have seen the most violence, you will then truly appreciate the most peacefulness.
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I've also known martial artists to win fights that they wouldn't even have been in were it not for this attitude of 'I can handle myself'. They could also have lost- or ended up doing serious harm accidentally. 12 years inside for manslaughter, just because your opponent fell backwards onto a plant pot. It's not worth it.
 
Well for me if you do all cost to win its up to you weather your a fighter a athlete or MMA there 50 chance you might win and 50 chance you might lost its like your desperate to win do all cost to win the question is what if you don't win what you gonna do know you should do it a correct way plan a strategy to take the opponent down and win
 
It entirely depends on the situation, but it can mostly be divided between training and life. Sparring and drills should be done within the confines of the rules, only deviating if your partner, not opponent, deviates outisde those confines. In a self defense scenario, win at all costs with proportional force. I couldn't care less what society deems taboo or unfair in a fight as long as it's proportional force.
 
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