Calling Somebody's Dojo A McDojo Is Offensive

[Wing Woo Gar]

Like this?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Like this?

Was there meant to be a picture/video there?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Was there meant to be a picture/video there?

Nah I just fumbled the quote. Not a big deal.

 

[Steve]

What if it says I’m a member of the KuKlux Klan? 😳

Are you?

 

[Gyakuto]

Are you?

Do they have a branch in the U.K.? Do you think they’d consider my application 👨🏽‍🔬

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do they have a branch in the U.K.? Do you think they’d consider my application 👨🏽‍🔬

We managed to get people in the US who consider themselves Nazis, so there are probably people who consider themselves KKK in Europe.

 

[Steve]

Do they have a branch in the U.K.? Do you think they’d consider my application 👨🏽‍🔬

I sincerely hope not.

 

[Steve]

We managed to get people in the US who consider themselves Nazis, so there are probably people who consider themselves KKK in Europe.

There are Qanon cultists in Germany.

 

[geezer]

If anyone is interested, this is a cool site with a lot of different quizzes that will help evaluate your implicit biases.

Take a Test

implicit.harvard.edu

I just took another online "Implicit Bias" test, the "race Bias (Black-White) at "project Implicit":

Take a Test

implicit.harvard.edu

I've never taken this kind of test before, and frankly am pretty dubious about the results. I mean here are the facts:

I'm a grumpy old white guy that grew up in an upper-middle class white neighborhood attended private schools and had a lot of privileges. Now I live in a pretty nice old predominantly white neighborhood and only have a few black acquaintances. So I should be full of implicit bias against minorities, right?

But that test (and I tried to be honest with my responses) said that I show "a moderately strong bias towards Black people". So I'm implicitly biases in favor of Blacks? How does that work????

I'm confused.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I sincerely hope not.

Why not? It would mean they have diversified into accepting Asians. @Gyakuto is obviously joking. Get a look at his picture, even Stevie Wonder can see that he won’t be getting in.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Huh?

Arguing with Dirty Dog is pointless, I speak from my own experience.

 

[Steve]

I just took another online "Implicit Bias" test, the "race Bias (Black-White) at "project Implicit":

Take a Test

implicit.harvard.edu

I've never taken this kind of test before, and frankly am pretty dubious about the results. I mean here are the facts:

I'm a grumpy old white guy that grew up in an upper-middle class white neighborhood attended private schools and had a lot of privileges. Now I live in a pretty nice old predominantly white neighborhood and only have a few black acquaintances. So I should be full of implicit bias against minorities, right?

But that test (and I tried to be honest with my responses) said that I show "a moderately strong bias towards Black people". So I'm implicitly biases in favor of Blacks? How does that work????

I'm confused.

I don’t believe it’s as cut and dried as all that. It will be impacted by your core beliefs and traits, significant life events, etc. in fact, I think the entire point of these tests is simply to encourage introspection and expose potential blind spots.

 

[Steve]

Why not? It would mean they have diversified into accepting Asians. @Gyakuto is obviously joking. Get a look at his picture, even Stevie Wonder can see that he won’t be getting in.

Reminds me of a Dave Chappell skit.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Reminds me of a Dave Chappell skit.

Yep, my thoughts went there immediately.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I know not all do Japanese arts on the forum but this might be good read for some. Striving and practicing for these reasons is a good objective. PAGETITLE | SITENAME

This is a nice synopsis of Budo with statements I’ve seen before such as ‘build character‘ (although I’ve never heard that term defined meaningfully).

But in my direct experience, high-graded, long time practitioners of Budo display these positive characteristics no more than anyone else in the population. In fact some of the most arrogant, financially corrupt, sometimes violent, misogynistic, racist people I’ve come across have been 6th, 7th and 8th Dan! I really do think it’s a myth that Budo training produces better people anymore than boxing or pottery classes do. If you teach a person of poor character how to use a sword, you will likely get a swordsman of poor character!

If Confucianism, Zen/Shingon/Shinto/Christian values, Greek philosophy etc were taught alongside Budo, then this charter might have a chance but they never are in my varied experience.

When I’ve trained with hachidan hanshi it’s always been about the technical aspects of swordsmanship. I have never heard them speak of morals, ethics or social behaviour.

I wrote a bit about this idea in a blog post a while back (link).

TLDR, martial arts absolutely can be a tool which you can use for "character development" or "self-improvement" or whatever label you want to put on it. But ...

It doesn't happen automatically.

It doesn't happen because your teacher offers instruction in some particular set of religious. philosophical, or cultural values or has you recite some sort of official ethical creed.

It happens because you put in the time and effort to figure out how your martial arts practice can apply to making you the person you want to be outside the dojo and then do the hard work of making that transformation. This can take just as much work as refining your techniques in the dojo.

Just like any tool, martial arts practice can be used for positive or negative purposes. That applies to self-transformation as much as the physical application of violence. You become more like the person you are trying to be, so be careful of your goal.

As someone who loves the martial arts, I'm happy to share the lessons I've learned in my training and how I've applied them to my life and becoming more the person that I want to be. But that doesn't mean those are the same lessons that someone else needs to learn or that they have the need or desire to apply those lessons in the same way in their own life.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I wrote a bit about this idea in a blog post a while back (link).

TLDR, martial arts absolutely can be a tool which you can use for "character development" or "self-improvement" or whatever label you want to put on it. But ...

It doesn't happen automatically.

It doesn't happen because your teacher offers instruction in some particular set of religious. philosophical, or cultural values or has you recite some sort of official ethical creed.

It happens because you put in the time and effort to figure out how your martial arts practice can apply to making you the person you want to be outside the dojo and then do the hard work of making that transformation. This can take just as much work as refining your techniques in the dojo.

Just like any tool, martial arts practice can be used for positive or negative purposes. That applies to self-transformation as much as the physical application of violence. You become more like the person you are trying to be, so be careful of your goal.

As someone who loves the martial arts, I'm happy to share the lessons I've learned in my training and how I've applied them to my life and becoming more the person that I want to be. But that doesn't mean those are the same lessons that someone else needs to learn or that they have the need or desire to apply those lessons in the same way in their own life.

I'll add to this that MA (and other activities - @Steve makes a good point about this in several threads) can be more likely to develop character traits if they are explicitly focused on by the instructor (in what is rewarded, what is tolerated, and what is discussed). But I don't think most instructors know much about how to do that effectively.

Just reciting creeds or knowing the definitions of words isn't likely to do much, no matter how much they are used. Just telling people they "should" or "shouldn't" one thing or another probably doesn't go far, on its own.

 

[Gyakuto]

I wrote a bit about this idea in a blog post a while back (link).

TLDR, martial arts absolutely can be a tool which you can use for "character development" or "self-improvement" or whatever label you want to put on it. But ...

It doesn't happen automatically.

It doesn't happen because your teacher offers instruction in some particular set of religious. philosophical, or cultural values or has you recite some sort of official ethical creed.

It happens because you put in the time and effort to figure out how your martial arts practice can apply to making you the person you want to be outside the dojo and then do the hard work of making that transformation. This can take just as much work as refining your techniques in the dojo.

Just like any tool, martial arts practice can be used for positive or negative purposes. That applies to self-transformation as much as the physical application of violence. You become more like the person you are trying to be, so be careful of your goal.

As someone who loves the martial arts, I'm happy to share the lessons I've learned in my training and how I've applied them to my life and becoming more the person that I want to be. But that doesn't mean those are the same lessons that someone else needs to learn or that they have the need or desire to apply those lessons in the same way in their own life.

I’ll attempt to define character building because without that, it’s difficult to debate what the Budo claim to be especially achieving. Character building is improving morally good traits in a person's character, in particular self-reliance, endurance, and courage and may include compassion, being peace-abiding, kindness, generosity of spirit and placing the needs of the many before the needs of the few (or one). Does that sound reasonable?

Thus (Japanese) martial arts are not special in their character-building abilities. I’d suggest these are equally as nurtured in the Boy Scouts, Girl Guides and Free Masonry. But because these institution’s are not being distracted by trying to be combat effective, they can devote more time to these aspects of their training.

I too, love the Japanese martial arts, but suggesting they have a special quality in fostering morality in anyone who practises them is overly simplified. person who wishes to character build, will do so regardless of the other things they do in life.

My character was forged by my parents, siblings and friends, my academic teachers, Confucian/Greek philosophical ideas and Mr Spock/Captain Picard. The martial arts teachers I’ve had (with the exception of my Kendo Teacher and first Karate teacher) would be far from the ideal people to build a good character.

 

[Steve]

I'll add to this that MA (and other activities - @Steve makes a good point about this in several threads) can be more likely to develop character traits if they are explicitly focused on by the instructor (in what is rewarded, what is tolerated, and what is discussed).

Thabk you for saving others from hearing the chess club lecture.

But I don't think most instructors know much about how to do that effectively.
Just reciting creeds or knowing the definitions of words isn't likely to do much, no matter how much they are used. Just telling people they "should" or "shouldn't" one thing or another probably doesn't go far, on its own.

Oh I don’t know. I think there are more good coaches than bad around. And I’d say it doesn’t require specifically focusing on those things, either. I think those positive traits are learned as a byproduct of the activity, not as an adjunct to it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Thabk you for saving others from hearing the chess club lecture.

It's a service I provide.

Oh I don’t know. I think there are more good coaches than bad around. And I’d say it doesn’t require specifically focusing on those things, either. I think those positive traits are learned as a byproduct of the activity, not as an adjunct to it.

There are certainly attributes that are a byproduct of the activity, itself. Learning to struggle. Learning to learn through failure. Learning to keep going to success. All of those build positive traits. And a coach/instructor who is a good model of communication, humility, etc. will encourage those things without having to teach them.

I guess my point was that there are instructors who think they are actively teaching to develop specific traits, and many of them are not. A good portion of them are helping develop the traits they think they are, but likely not because of the things they think. I think it takes a special person - and specific approaches - to actively teach/develop those traits through philosophy. And I'm not sure I could point to anything that even shows that's reliably possible, at all.

 

[Mider]

Arguing with Dirty Dog is pointless, I speak from my own experience.

I left the discussion as so many here seem to get offended when a novice has an opinion

go figure...getting offended on a forum