Calling Somebody's Dojo A McDojo Is Offensive

[Wing Woo Gar]

No, he wasn't. He was famous for being good in martial arts MOVIES.

Phelps has a documented competitive record. Not so Lee.

And of course, being good at X does not mean you will be a good teacher of X.

Exactly.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Alright if Bruce Lee is not the best example how about this, if you were getting boxing lessons from Evander Holyfield would you believe you would be getting good instruction?

Maybe? I can fight, does not equal I can teach.

 

[WaterGal]

From my observations, instructors that are from the orient usually don't run mcdojos. With mcdojos it's usually American instructors that run them. Now obviously not all American instructors run mcdojos and Im training under an American instructor right now and he's really good and he certainly does not run a mcdojo, its just that when you find a mcdojo it usually will not be run by an Asian instructor.

Hmm, that's not been my experience at all. While I don't really find the term "McDojo" useful (since it's used to mean multiple different things), I've seen plenty of Asian martial arts instructors who are running schools that are basically after school babysitting services and the like. There's really no relationship IME between the business model and the ethnicity of the instructor.

 

[WaterGal]

Can a school be a "McDojo" if it's not a chain? Isn't franchising an intrinsic element? Otherwise, it's just a school with poor standards.

The term McDojo is used to mean a number of different things, typically including some combination of (real or perceived) low quality of instruction/poor standards of promotion and a (real or perceived) focus on business success over teaching good classes.

I think that a school can do those things at one location. There are schools that don't have a great program but manage to convince a bunch of parents to sign up for 2-year paid-up-front contracts anyway.

But, I think that becoming a chain/franchise can be when a school *becomes* a "McDojo", because it's hard to maintain consistency and standards across multiple locations and multiple staff members. It's one thing to have high standards of instruction when you're teaching all the classes, but making sure that a group of instructors are all teaching that way and to those standards is harder. So some people just kind of hire whoever's willing to work for them who has some martial arts experience and throw them in front of the class and hope for the best, you know?

 

[skribs]

The term McDojo is used to mean a number of different things, typically including some combination of (real or perceived) low quality of instruction/poor standards of promotion and a (real or perceived) focus on business success over teaching good classes.

I think that it only really matters academically (i.e. for us to discuss online) what the difference is. The fact is, whether the problem is:

• The school teaches poor martial arts
• The school does a poor job teaching good martial arts
• The school has low quality control
• The school has predatory business practices

In any of those cases, you're likely getting a disservice in some way, shape, or form. I mean, it's possible to get good at martial arts if there's low quality control and bad business practices, if you can afford it, and if the teaching is good, and if you have the level of discipline to take advantage of that teaching. But in general, you'd be better off somewhere that's going to treat you right.

But, I think that becoming a chain/franchise can be when a school *becomes* a "McDojo", because it's hard to maintain consistency and standards across multiple locations and multiple staff members. It's one thing to have high standards of instruction when you're teaching all the classes, but making sure that a group of instructors are all teaching that way and to those standards is harder. So some people just kind of hire whoever's willing to work for them who has some martial arts experience and throw them in front of the class and hope for the best, you know?

I think my old school is an example of the problem existing in the other direction. There was my Master, his wife, and me as the only competent instructors. When I say "competent" in this context, I mean we were the only three who met these two criteria:

• Know the full curriculum from white to black belt
• Know how to teach effectively

We had a few students who were great mentors or great at teaching off-script, but didn't have the full curriculum. (They had the skills, just not the rote memorization). I don't know that we had any that remembered the entire rote curriculum besides the three of us.

I think that having such a robust curriculum has made it hard for him to franchise out, because how can you open a second school if people don't even know what to teach? I think my leaving really hurt his plans, because I was the only one that could keep up with him and his wife in memorization, and without me he's back to just 2 people. He did mention once that if any other of his instructors were to head up a school, he would have to modify the curriculum to make it accessible enough for them to teach it.

(This is why I made the threads in the TKD forum about memorization, is I think his approach to a lot of things about it were way off).

 

[Tigerwarrior]

If the MA ability of James Coburn or the other actors that clung to BL are anything to go by, he was an awful teacher!😉

I would love to attend one of his seminars 😂 It’d be like when Sheldon Cooper attends a book signing by Brian Greene 😂🤣

No disrespect to anyone's religion but George Dillmans seminars are like charismatic apostolic Christianity EXCEPT instead of catching the holy ghost and speaking in tongues, people go to sleep when he just looks at them with intention, he can no touch knockout anyone it's kewl I seent it on TV one time, once you seent it you can't unsee it.

 

[Hyoho]

If the MA ability of James Coburn or the other actors that clung to BL are anything to go by, he was an awful teacher!😉

I would love to attend one of his seminars 😂 It’d be like when Sheldon Cooper attends a book signing by Brian Greene 😂🤣

I thought it was well known that particular stars and people considered experts gave "special" lessons to stars. I friend/student of mine was a student of Inosanto. He went to special get together where he was told he was to be honoured. Then he was told how much this honorarium would cost him. And the fact that his old teacher now only gave lessons to famous people.

 

[Tigerwarrior]

Can I get honored for 19.95 on a Thursday? Wtf type of honor is that. Dude you pay me 10k and I'll hold a banquet and then tell everyone there how great you are, then take the 10k and run.

 

[Steve]

Can I get honored for 19.95 on a Thursday? Wtf type of honor is that. Dude you pay me 10k and I'll hold a banquet and then tell everyone there how great you are, then take the 10k and run.

I think that’s a solid business model. I would honor the **** out of any Ken on this forum for 10k!

 

[Gyakuto]

Bruce Lee was an impressive athlete, and a great actor. He is famous for martial arts MOVIES. There is no fight record, as such.

After reading the well researched, fully referenced and balanced biography, ‘Bruce Lee: A Life’ by Matthew Polly it seems he wasn’t a very good human being (one of the original nails in the coffin of the hypothesis that ‘the martial arts build character and good people’). His films were awful, his acting more wooden than the dummies he trained with and the fight scenes were mediocre with that embarrassing caterwauling! But he was ‘the first’ (in the West), just as Charlie Chaplin was the first to look down a ‘blocked’ hose pipe or slip on a banana skin.

I had a teacher who was a good practitioner but a poor teacher (he was a lazy). When he did actually demonstrate a technique I’d ask, “Might you, perhaps, break down how to get from X to Y in the kata?” He’d think for a second, say “Errrr…” and just demonstrate it again🙄. At the time, I put it down to expertise induced amnesia but my current teacher (7th Dan) is just incredible at explaining how things are done…in minute detail!

 

[PhotonGuy]

I've seen plenty of Asian martial arts instructors who are running schools that are basically after school babysitting services and the like. There's really no relationship IME between the business model and the ethnicity of the instructor.

An after school babysitting service can apply to just about any kind of after school activity, not just martial arts. And yes small children do make up a huge portion of people who do martial arts so a martial arts school could be seen as a babysitting service if they teach small children, and just because they're a babysitting service doesn't mean the children are receiving bad instruction, as long as they aren't handing out black belts like candy.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

just because they're a babysitting service doesn't mean the children are receiving bad instruction, as long as they aren't handing out black belts like candy.

These two sentiments seem entirely unrelated. I can provide good instruction, and still give someone a black belt in 1-2 years, if black belt means something different to me. I can provide bad instruction, while making people wait 10 years to get it (or not have a belt system at all).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But Bruce Lee was famous for being exceptional in the martial arts in real life, not just on screen.

I've met some folks who were exceptional practitioners, but who were not all that good at teaching. In some cases, the first was the reason for the second - they didn't remember what it took to learn to do something well.

I'm actually a good example of this, in one aspect. I was always one of the best in my instructor's dojo at falls and rolls - often used where a hard (heavy impact) throw was being demonstrated. I'm kind of mediocre at teaching people how to fall, because it was always easy for me. I just did them, and they kinda worked and got better the more I used them. The only good breakfallers I've ever developed were folks who started out like me: they found the first level of falls and rolls quite easy to learn and do.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I see what you’re saying, but technical credibility is only one part of being a good instructor. It’s important, but there are other skills that are important.

And with exceptional athletes like Lee or Phelps, you can run into a funny situation where they are so exceptional, they don’t really understand why they can do what they do. I’ve seen situations where people completely misunderstood what made them successful. And if uij try to teach that to others, they could fail miserably.

The measure of a successful trainer isn’t what they have done or can do. It’s what the students can do.

This is a real dilemma for some schools and martial arts styles.

I've seen this inside and outside of martial arts. My best example was a couple of sales trainers. They were the two top salespeople that year in the same nationwide organization. Each spoke with certainty on what they felt was necessary to succeed. The main thing they focused on was a direct conflict (one taught you had to move fast through the appointment to give the sense of confidence and competence, while the other taught to had to slow down and take your time so you would look confident and competent).

 

[GojuTommy]

Because Bruce Lee was famous for being good in the martial arts. If Michael Phelps was teaching you competitive swimming I would think it would be rather obvious that you would be getting good instruction.

Michael Phelps has like 24 gold medals.
Bruce Lee won 1 high school boxing tournament, and no other real proof of any physical skill.
Bruce Lee is famous as a movie star and a martial arts philosopher.

 

[GojuTommy]

Bruce Lee was an impressive athlete, and a great actor. He is famous for martial arts MOVIES. There is no fight record, as such.

He won a high school boxing tournament.
Not much but better than nothing. I’ve never found anything stating how many fights it took to win that tournament. Could have been 1 fight, or could have been a dozen.

 

[GojuTommy]

No, he wasn't. He was famous for being good in martial arts MOVIES.

Phelps has a documented competitive record. Not so Lee.

And of course, being good at X does not mean you will be a good teacher of X.

To be fair he was indeed famous for martial arts.
But as has been noted for most people being good at martial arts doesn’t necessarily mean being able to fight.

His 1 inch punch was a martial arts thing and he was famous for it. I’d say he was definitely more famous as an actor and philosopher than as an actual martial artist though.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Not necessarily. Like Steve said, sometimes they're too good, and don't know how to teach those that don't just "Get it". A good comparison to me is mathematics. I know some people who are geniuses at math, but would not be able to teach others. Their mind jumps 4 steps in solving a problem, so they can't go back and explain those steps, or even think someone could mess up/not understand what they consider obvious.

Alright I will use a different example. Let's say there's this professor who is well known for being excellent at teaching the material from his given field. Let's say the professor teaches medicine for instance. He's taught at Harvard Medical School and other top universities and is famous for having many of his students becoming some of the best doctors in the field. Now let's say you're a student of his learning medicine. In this case you would be getting top quality instruction and you would not be going to a McDojo, or a McMedical School in this case, not when you're being taught by said professor.

 

[PhotonGuy]

These two sentiments seem entirely unrelated. I can provide good instruction, and still give someone a black belt in 1-2 years, if black belt means something different to me. I can provide bad instruction, while making people wait 10 years to get it (or not have a belt system at all).

When I talk about dojos that hand out blackbelts like candy what Im talking about is dojos that have really low skill requirements for the black belt, so that students can have really terrible skills and still get black belts. Its not a matter of how long it takes to get black belts, if you have high skill requirements and a student meets the skill requirements in 1-2 years than you can give said student a black belt in 1-2 years without being a McDojo.

This would of course not apply to dojos that don't have belt systems, other factors would be taken into play when determining if such dojos are McDojos.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I've met some folks who were exceptional practitioners, but who were not all that good at teaching. In some cases, the first was the reason for the second - they didn't remember what it took to learn to do something well.

I'm actually a good example of this, in one aspect. I was always one of the best in my instructor's dojo at falls and rolls - often used where a hard (heavy impact) throw was being demonstrated. I'm kind of mediocre at teaching people how to fall, because it was always easy for me. I just did them, and they kinda worked and got better the more I used them. The only good breakfallers I've ever developed were folks who started out like me: they found the first level of falls and rolls quite easy to learn and do.

I've addressed that, see post #558.