Calling Somebody's Dojo A McDojo Is Offensive

[Flying Crane]

I am going to keep beating it until I've made my point(s).

Um…snicker snicker…

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Not until Im satisfied I've made my points and no, the way I see it not everybody has understood me and I know the difference between when people agree or disagree with me and when they've understood me or not in the first place.

You misunderstood me with the first part. "Not until I'm satisfied I've made my points" Implies I told you to stop making them. Which I did not, I was pointing out how often you do. And hard disagree on the second part of your response.

 

[Flying Crane]

You misunderstood me with the first part. "Not until I'm satisfied I've made my points" Implies I told you to stop making them. Which I did not, I was pointing out how often you do. And hard disagree on the second part of your response.

The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!

 

[Dirty Dog]

Not until Im satisfied I've made my points and no, the way I see it not everybody has understood me and I know the difference between when people agree or disagree with me and when they've understood me or not in the first place.

I don't really think you do...

 

[Hot Lunch]

To some people it is a big deal. Others are not so concerned. To a member of the general public it holds a different meaning than it does to a martial artist. When it comes to the crunch, it's just a colored piece of material. The experience gained and skills learned are more important. In a number of dojos, I trained alongside highly skilled martial artists who had never taken a single grading. And, before Jigaro Kano came along nobody even wore a gi, let alone a belt.

He was looking for a simple yes or no. And now, so am I.

 

[Steve]

To some people it is a big deal. Others are not so concerned. To a member of the general public it holds a different meaning than it does to a martial artist. When it comes to the crunch, it's just a colored piece of material. The experience gained and skills learned are more important. In a number of dojos, I trained alongside highly skilled martial artists who had never taken a single grading. And, before Jigaro Kano came along nobody even wore a gi, let alone a belt.

It’s about ceremonial adequacy.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Um…snicker snicker…

…like it owes him money…

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It’s about ceremonial adequacy.

Are you suggesting that in addition to my various flaws, I am also ceremonially inadequate?

 

[Gyakuto]

Two to three. One particular Gojukai dojo website even mentioned that, all other requirements being met, two classes a week will get black belt in three and a half years.

I won’t talk of ‘colours of belts’ since they vary so much between arts/governing bodies, but in the USA, Dan grades are often referred to a ‘degrees’. It’s unclear if that is used as a synonym for ‘level’ or as an equivalent of an educational establishment’s degree. If it’s the latter, do you think two classes a week (the duration being unspecified) for three and a half years is equivalent to the amount of study, say, a science student engages in for their degree qualification?

We used to advise university students that each hour of face to face teaching required them to perform a further four hours of private study. Using this as a guide (and assuming a martial arts class is two hours in duration) that would mean 10 hours of meaningful, progressive practise per week for three and a half years to achieve first Dan. That sounds reasonable.

 

[_Simon_]

Are you suggesting that in addition to my various flaws, I am also ceremonially inadequate?

Hey, now I wanna be ceremonially adequate!

 

[Belkster]

I won’t talk of ‘colours of belts’ since they vary so much between arts/governing bodies, but in the USA, Dan grades are often referred to a ‘degrees’. It’s unclear if that is used as a synonym for ‘level’ or as an equivalent of an educational establishment’s degree. If it’s the latter, do you think two classes a week (the duration being unspecified) for three and a half years is equivalent to the amount of study, say, a science student engages in for their degree qualification?

We used to advise university students that each hour of face to face teaching required them to perform a further four hours of private study. Using this as a guide (and assuming a martial arts class is two hours in duration) that would mean 10 hours of meaningful, progressive practise per week for three and a half years to achieve first Dan. That sounds reasonable.

A ratio of 1 to 4 is certainly a great ratio. If the goal is to get Dan (or a level), that might be enough. But do many people practise with the aim of getting that Dan? For example, I am interested in the training itself. What it will lead to - time will tell.

 

[Gyakuto]

A ratio of 1 to 4 is certainly a great ratio. If the goal is to get Dan (or a level), that might be enough. But do many people practise with the aim of getting that Dan? For example, I am interested in the training itself. What it will lead to - time will tell.

Human behaviour tends to be goal-orientated and reinforced: act -> goal -> reward -> repeat. Without that goal/reward sequence, the behaviour is more than likely extinguished otherwise there’d be more terrible violin players who’ve been practising for 30 years and why people give up going to the gym or practising martial arts without any progress in skill. Gradings provide one objective measure of progress that keeps us motivated.

I’ve met a few practitioners of martial arts over the years who’ve said they will only grade once and then just practise for the sake of it. I’ve yet to see one of these people continue after a year or two especially when their original peers go through ‘the objective measures of progress’ (grades) and leave them behind for advanced courses etc.

 

[Belkster]

Human behaviour tends to be goal-orientated and reinforced: act -> goal -> reward -> repeat. Without that goal/reward sequence, the behaviour is more than likely extinguished otherwise there’d be more terrible violin players who’ve been practising for 30 years and why people give up going to the gym or practising martial arts without any progress in skill. Gradings provide one objective measure of progress that keeps us motivated.

I’ve met a few practitioners of martial arts over the years who’ve said they will only grade once and then just practise for the sake of it. I’ve yet to see one of these people continue after a year or two especially when their original peers go through ‘the objective measures of progress’ (grades) and leave them behind for advanced courses etc.

Yes, such a system works too. Many people quit when they see that they are doing worse than others. That is if they compare themselves to others. And if the training is for someone else, not for themselves.

 

[Hot Lunch]

If it’s the latter, do you think two classes a week (the duration being unspecified) for three and a half years is equivalent to the amount of study, say, a science student engages in for their degree qualification?

This question assumes that earning a black belt is equal to earning a college degree. Four years of full time study, 120 credits, the first 60 of which are the core curriculum classes consisting of hard science electives, literature, humanities, mathematics, etc. Where the entire curriculum of most Japanese and Korean martial arts up to 1st Dan are on just a few pages (maybe 5 to 10), you have a 500 page textbook for each 3-credit class in college. They're not the same.

We used to advise university students that each hour of face to face teaching required them to perform a further four hours of private study. Using this as a guide (and assuming a martial arts class is two hours in duration) that would mean 10 hours of meaningful, progressive practise per week for three and a half years to achieve first Dan. That sounds reasonable.

Yeah, but you have no way of knowing how many hours these students are studying on their own time, or even if they are at all. Every student is different, and some are fully capable of excelling with little or no self-study time.

 

[Steve]

Are you suggesting that in addition to my various flaws, I am also ceremonially inadequate?

Everyone is in some context. But if you don’t have a black belt, then yes. You aren't part of that exclusive club. Doesn't matter how lazy or ineffective a black belt (or even an entire program) is... they have one and you don't.

Possibly oversimplifying a little, but the basic idea is sort of a two part thing. First, if you don't have the thing that marks you as being part of a group, then you are not ceremonially adequate. It can be driving the right kind of car, wearing a club tie, a black belt, having a college degree... any of these can be markers for inclusion in a group. Doesn't matter whether you know more than all of them combined.

Second, there's a bit of what the kids are calling FOMO or fear of missing out, where some folks will pursue the trappings without appreciating the value of the experiences. I mean, look at @_Simon_ 's humorous response. While he's clearly speaking tongue-in-cheek, this is exactly what happens... folks may focus on the trappings to their detriment. Financially, this is how credit agencies lure people into feeling that they deserve or have earned things that they simply cannot afford.

 

[Steve]

Hey, now I wanna be ceremonially adequate!

Sorry... without that black belt, you just aren't a part of the club. Hey, the good news is that there is a 12 week long program where, if you graduate, you get a black belt!

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Everyone is in some context. But if you don’t have a black belt, then yes. You aren't part of that exclusive club. Doesn't matter how lazy or ineffective a black belt (or even an entire program) is... they have one and you don't.

Possibly oversimplifying a little, but the basic idea is sort of a two part thing. First, if you don't have the thing that marks you as being part of a group, then you are not ceremonially adequate. It can be driving the right kind of car, wearing a club tie, a black belt, having a college degree... any of these can be markers for inclusion in a group. Doesn't matter whether you know more than all of them combined.

Second, there's a bit of what the kids are calling FOMO or fear of missing out, where some folks will pursue the trappings without appreciating the value of the experiences. I mean, look at @_Simon_ 's humorous response. While he's clearly speaking tongue-in-cheek, this is exactly what happens... folks may focus on the trappings to their detriment. Financially, this is how credit agencies lure people into feeling that they deserve or have earned things that they simply cannot afford.

Well, I was joking, I don’t care a damn about belts, costumes, clubs or FOMO for that matter. I train out of self discipline and pure love for the practice. When it comes to MA, I don’t need validation from others, I get that from knowing I do the hard work consistently. I see the progress my students make, that gives me the ultimate satisfaction. As far as ceremony, there is a disciple ceremony in some CMA. I guess that may qualify, though there is no outward symbol that signifies one has participated in said ceremony. Perhaps I should institute some feather waving and rattle shaking, since placebo is nearly as efficacious as any other treatment.

 

[Steve]

Well, I was joking, I don’t care a damn about belts, costumes, clubs or FOMO for that matter. I train out of self discipline and pure love for the practice. When it comes to MA, I don’t need validation from others, I get that from knowing I do the hard work consistently. I see the progress my students make, that gives me the ultimate satisfaction. As far as ceremony, there is a disciple ceremony in some CMA. I guess that may qualify, though there is no outward symbol that signifies one has participated in said ceremony. Perhaps I should institute some feather waving and rattle shaking, since placebo is nearly as efficacious as any other treatment.

Totally. I know what you mean. It's an interesting topic for me. Coined by a guy named Thorstein Veblen, who wrote the book, The Theory of the Leisure Class back in 1899. A lot of what he predicted has come to pass. It's a little bit of economic theory, a little sociology, some commentary on wealth and cycles of poverty. He also coined the term "conspicuous consumption" in this book.

to be clear, there are a lot of varying points made in the book, but the pursuit of the trappings of wealth or prestige are not presented as being all that positive. It's just a recognition that people will want things they don't have, and in particular things that will confer upon them some kind of prestige related to a privileged class. So, in this case, it's natural for folks to want a black belt because it is a tangible, visible representation of elevated rank. In another context, someone might aspire to other things... a PhD or an assigned parking spot. And at a certain point, this can take the form of literally, publicly doing nothing productive. The Kardashians are a good example, I think, of a group of people who are famous for literally doing nothing useful or productive.

It's a deep topic that I believe explains a lot about how society and people in it react to wealth, social media, technology, and just general consumerism.

But all that said, in this context, sorry to say, you are ceremonially inadequate.

 

[Gyakuto]

This question assumes that earning a black belt is equal to earning a college degree. Four years of full time study, 120 credits, the first 60 of which are the core curriculum classes consisting of hard science electives, literature, humanities, mathematics, etc. Where the entire curriculum of most Japanese and Korean martial arts up to 1st Dan are on just a few pages (maybe 5 to 10), you have a 500 page textbook for each 3-credit class in college. They're not the same.

Yes, that’s why I said, ‘If it’s the latter…’

Yeah, but you have no way of knowing how many hours these students are studying on their own time, or even if they are at all. Every student is different, and some are fully capable of excelling with little or no self-study time.

It is well known that when a student does well on a degree course without studying, they are lying.

 

[Hot Lunch]

to be clear, there are a lot of varying points made in the book, but the pursuit of the trappings of wealth or prestige are not presented as being all that positive. It's just a recognition that people will want things they don't have, and in particular things that will confer upon them some kind of prestige related to a privileged class. So, in this case, it's natural for folks to want a black belt because it is a tangible, visible representation of elevated rank.

While riding a public transit bus full of shipyard workers one day, I do recall overhearing a conversation about between them about wanting to become foreman and to wear a white hardhat. So I don't doubt this at all.